Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

[MarkTK36thIL]

Where's CHS when you need him?

Were Spencer rifle bayonets sized differently than muskets? Will an original fit?Spencer Rifle Bayonet

[trippcor]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

No one is making a repro bayonet for the spencer however it is very similar to a standard Springfield Bayonet. According to Curt Schmit on another forum he was able to get a Springfield bayonet to fit a Spencer. From what I could find only about 11,000 bayonets were producted for the Spencer. I have no idea if an original will fit a repro gun. But at $750 or so a pop I don't think many of us will have one.

[thad gallagher]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Found this website showing an Enfield bayonet on a Spencer Rifle.

http://armscollectors.com/mgs/spencer_repeating_rifle.htm

So if the Blakeslee cartridge box wasn't common in the field until late '64, what was the common practice to carry your spencer ammunition without one? Did one keep the rounds loose in their regular issue box?

[trippcor]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

I will need to go and check back with some of the Critters but I believe their research showed that many men carried their rounds in a standard cartridge box that they removed the tins from and used the actual boxes the rounds were issued in to organize the rounds in the cartridge box. Coley told me that they have tried it that way in the field and it seems to work well.

[brown]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Tripp,
Harvey Cash showed me a similiar account from Wilder's Brigade of the men removing the tins from their old cartridge boxes, and also using pockets to hold rounds, b/c they often carried more rounds than their cartridge box could hold.

[44 Henry]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

First I would like to say that it is great that someone is planning on doing another Henry Impression in Civil War reenacting. The Henry Rifle has been a hobby of mine for over 30 years. The two greatest resourses dealing with the Henry Rifle and its uses during the Civil War are the book by Ren Barker entitled Company "D", 66th Illinois: Birge's Western Sharpshooters in the Civil War, 1861-1865 and the book “The Henry Repeating Rifle” by Andrew L. Bresnan that can be found at http://www.rarewinchesters.com/artic...t_hen_00.shtml
Both of these resources are excellent. The down side is that Barker’s book is out of print.

In 1989 at Franklin and through the early 1990s a National Henry Rifle Company was formed and participated in several national reenactments including Bentonville, Franklin, Chickamauga, Spring Hill, Resaca and several others. It was great to have 15 to 20 Henrys at an event. Unfortunately the Henry Rifle for use in reenactments has been misunderstood for a long time. The Henry and the Spencer were considered the assault rifle of its day and was used as such. So to buy a Henry and fire no faster than a muzzleloader is a misuse of the Henry and it’s firepower. The research will bear this out. An example was Allatoona Pass, GA where the 7th Illinois fired over 31,000 in 2 hours of fighting with having less than 200 Henrys. Depending on the reenactment the ammunition required should be in the neighborhood of 300 to 500 rounds. It sounds like a lot of ammo but if you are engaged in a battle you will know exactly what I mean. In researching Henry tactics you will find that the rapidity of fire is what is mentioned frequently. It is mentioned how fast they worked the levers on their rifles, firing 90 rounds non-stop, and working the levers like pump handles. Plan for the unpredictable by having enough ammo for the event. To be caught short of ammo means all you have is a useless fancy club with an empty Henry.

Blanks can be very expensive when using a Henry rifle. The use of plastic blanks is not a good choice however several have used the plastic blank and I guess they will work if nothing else is available. Plastic blanks do have several problems and safety concerns. These concerns include the following: 1. the extractor will rip through the rim of the plastic case at times causing a case stuck in the chamber. 2. plastic residue will accumulate in the barrel causing a dangerous and difficult to clean mess, 3. When the chamber heats up with firing the plastic will have a tendency to again stick in the barrel, 4. Plastic rounds have been known to cook off in a hot barrel, 5. Another big issue especially if we want to look authentic is the plastic round itself, it just doesn’t look right nor does it sound like a Civil War rifle.

Blanks loaded in brass cases can be very expensive. If you are going to buy blanks make sure that they are FULL LENGTH blanks, the length of a live round. Some manufacturers sell blanks for use in pistols such as for the SASS Cowboy shooters. These will not function in your .44-40 Henry as they will be too short and will cause the Henry to jam. Starline makes the proper length case but are again very expensive. If buying from Swanson make sure the price that is quoted is for the FULL LENGTH blanks, the length of a live round. Another concern when using black powder in your blanks is the fact that fouling will be a big problem after 20 to 30 rounds. If using plastic rounds with smokeless powder that fouling problem is not an issue but they do not sound like a Civil War weapon going off, another reason why not to use plastic.
The current made Henry as produced by Uberti has only a 13 round magazine capacity. The real Henry had a magazine capacity of 16 for the shorter earlier .44 Henry cartridge and 15 round capacity for the redesigned Henry cartridge of 1864. Several of us have converted our Henrys to shoot a blank loaded in a .44 Magnum brass to make the Henry a true 16-17 shooter counting the round in the chamber. If you load your own blanks using the .44 Magnum cases the cost is only about $23 per 100 blanks. Used Henry rifles can be purchased for between $750 and $900 depending on where you look. The SASS web site has used ones for sell from time to time. A warning concerning acquiring a new Henry is to be careful of the magazine slot, these can be very sharp and can cut you. A small file can cure that problem. Also when buying a Henry it is best to get one with a sling on it or if you buy one without a sling mount you might want to put one on. It comes in very handy on a long march.

Carrying blanks at the event can be done by using a haversack, any make of cartridge box or a Henry cartridge box. Henry cartridge boxes were not common nor were they an issued item. Most Civil War soldiers using a Henry carried rounds in whatever way was best suited for them. Cartridge belts were not in wide use either, in fact maybe only one or 2 were even used.

If you are going to carry a Henry rifle you should know how to take care of it in the field. In fact I have replaced firing pins, main springs, etc. in the field at events. So have the tools to work on your Henry with you or you might be down and out.

I hope the above information is useful as there is no need to reinvent the wheel if it is not necessary. I am looking forward to attending this event.
Andy

[Peachfuz]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Found this on the N-SSA board regarding the Armisport Spencer: http://www.n-ssa.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=10451

[44 Henry]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

First I would like to say that it is great that someone is planning on doing another Henry Impression in Civil War reenacting. The Henry Rifle has been a hobby of mine for over 30 years. The two greatest resourses dealing with the Henry Rifle and its uses during the Civil War are the book by Ren Barker entitled Company "D", 66th Illinois: Birge's Western Sharpshooters in the Civil War, 1861-1865 and the book “The Henry Repeating Rifle” by Andrew L. Bresnan that can be found at http://www.rarewinchesters.com/artic...t_hen_00.shtml
Both of these resources are excellent. The down side is that Barker’s book is out of print.

In 1989 at Franklin and through the early 1990s a National Henry Rifle Company was formed and participated in several national reenactments including Bentonville, Franklin, Chickamauga, Spring Hill, Resaca and several others. It was great to have 15 to 20 Henrys at an event. Unfortunately the Henry Rifle for use in reenactments has been misunderstood for a long time. The Henry and the Spencer were considered the assault rifle of its day and was used as such. So to buy a Henry and fire no faster than a muzzleloader is a misuse of the Henry and it’s firepower. The research will bear this out. An example was Allatoona Pass, GA where the 7th Illinois fired over 31,000 in 2 hours of fighting with having less than 200 Henrys. Depending on the reenactment the ammunition required should be in the neighborhood of 300 to 500 rounds. It sounds like a lot of ammo but if you are engaged in a battle you will know exactly what I mean. In researching Henry tactics you will find that the rapidity of fire is what is mentioned frequently. It is mentioned how fast they worked the levers on their rifles, firing 90 rounds non-stop, and working the levers like pump handles. Plan for the unpredictable by having enough ammo for the event. To be caught short of ammo means all you have is a useless fancy club with an empty Henry.

Blanks can be very expensive when using a Henry rifle. The use of plastic blanks is not a good choice however several have used the plastic blank and I guess they will work if nothing else is available. Plastic blanks do have several problems and safety concerns. These concerns include the following: 1. the extractor will rip through the rim of the plastic case at times causing a case stuck in the chamber. 2. plastic residue will accumulate in the barrel causing a dangerous and difficult to clean mess, 3. When the chamber heats up with firing the plastic will have a tendency to again stick in the barrel, 4. Plastic rounds have been known to cook off in a hot barrel, 5. Another big issue especially if we want to look authentic is the plastic round itself, it just doesn’t look right nor does it sound like a Civil War rifle.

Blanks loaded in brass cases can be very expensive. If you are going to buy blanks make sure that they are FULL LENGTH blanks, the length of a live round. Some manufacturers sell blanks for use in pistols such as for the SASS Cowboy shooters. These will not function in your .44-40 Henry as they will be too short and will cause the Henry to jam. Starline makes the proper length case but are again very expensive. If buying from Swanson make sure the price that is quoted is for the FULL LENGTH blanks, the length of a live round. Another concern when using black powder in your blanks is the fact that fouling will be a big problem after 20 to 30 rounds. If using plastic rounds with smokeless powder that fouling problem is not an issue but they do not sound like a Civil War weapon going off, another reason why not to use plastic.
The current made Henry as produced by Uberti has only a 13 round magazine capacity. The real Henry had a magazine capacity of 16 for the shorter earlier .44 Henry cartridge and 15 round capacity for the redesigned Henry cartridge of 1864. Several of us have converted our Henrys to shoot a blank loaded in a .44 Magnum brass to make the Henry a true 16-17 shooter counting the round in the chamber. If you load your own blanks using the .44 Magnum cases the cost is only about $23 per 100 blanks. Used Henry rifles can be purchased for between $750 and $900 depending on where you look. The SASS web site has used ones for sell from time to time. A warning concerning acquiring a new Henry is to be careful of the magazine slot, these can be very sharp and can cut you. A small file can cure that problem. Also when buying a Henry it is best to get one with a sling on it or if you buy one without a sling mount you might want to put one on. It comes in very handy on a long march.

Carrying blanks at the event can be done by using a haversack, any make of cartridge box or a Henry cartridge box. Henry cartridge boxes were not common nor were they an issued item. Most Civil War soldiers using a Henry carried rounds in whatever way was best suited for them. Cartridge belts were not in wide use either, in fact maybe only one or 2 were even used.

If you are going to carry a Henry rifle you should know how to take care of it in the field. In fact I have replaced firing pins, main springs, etc. in the field at events. So have the tools to work on your Henry with you or you might be down and out.

I hope the above information is useful as there is no need to reinvent the wheel if it is not necessary. I am looking forward to attending this event.
Andy Bresnan
National Henry Rifle Company
7th Illinois Veteran Volunteer Infantry
ICSS
66th Illinois Infantry WSS

[country rifle]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Fellow Enthusiasts,

Has any thought been given to converting the newly acquired Henrys so that they will be correct as true 16 shooters?

The repop Henry rifles right out of the box will not be 16 shooters and thus incorrect for use in an 1860's envrionment.

A little food for thought.

Sincerely,

Robert Leinweber
ICSS

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Rob,

How exactly is that accomplished? Is that an at home "in the workshop" process or something that would require the rifle to be sent to a gunsmith? I for one would certainly be interested in getting the rifle as authentic and get any bugs worked out before the event. Knowing that you have been carrying a Henry for 10-15 years I know I speak for everyone who is considering plunking $900+ on a Henry when I say any advice or information you can offer will be greatly appreciated.


Best,

Dan

[country rifle]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Fellow Henry Enthusiasts,

The process to convert the repop Henry into a true 16 shooter is a fairly simple one.

It requires a slight modification to the carrier and the bolt to allow the use of a smaller cartridge which more correctly mimics the size of the original 44 Henry cartridge.

The first few conversions were done by gunsmiths in their shops. However, our riflemen are very resourceful and after looking it over carefully other conversions have been done by our own riflemen. A good drill, tap and die set and a Dremel tool are the main items.

Depending on your level of mechanical prowess, possession of basic tools and intestinal fortitude most folks could probably do it themselves.

Sadly the fellow who would really be the best source of help on all matters Henry, Andy Bresnan, was blocked by the Mod from posting historical and safety oriented information. According to the Mod it was deemed as "drifting into farb land."

Mr. Bresnan is the resident Henry historian of our unit with well over 20 years of research and experience with the Henry Rifle. Suffice to say that he knows the metallic creature inside and out. He can save you folks a lot of headaches with his level of knowledge concerning historical, mechanical and practical matters of the Henry.

I defer to Mr. Bresnan's expertise as it far exceeds my own.

Sincerely,

Rob


Robert Leinweber
ICSS

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Rob,

That is a shame. I personally consider the Henry to be the most complicated CW firearm that saw wide use, and I feel that we will definitely need to draw on the experience of folks like yourself and Mr. Bresnan if we hope to put two dozen guys who have never handled the rifle into the field. I'm wondering even if most of the fellows know to bring a pair of gloves to the event. Even though this won't be a real "shooting" event those rifles can heat up amazingly fast, I once had a 6" long burn scar for the better part of a year on my face and neck after my Sharps barrel pressed into me at an event, and that was only after 15-20 rounds.

I personally will be grateful for any advice offered on these rifles from you folks who have been handling them for two decades. That's WAY too much money to spend on a wall hanger that I'm afraid to shoot!


Best,

Dan

[JimKindred]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Fellows,


A little more food for thought, just bare in mind that to modify these new rifles voids any warranty offered.

Fellow Enthusiasts,

Has any thought been given to converting the newly acquired Henrys so that they will be correct as true 16 shooters?

The repop Henry rifles right out of the box will not be 16 shooters and thus incorrect for use in an 1860's envrionment.

A little food for thought.

Sincerely,

Robert Leinweber
ICSS

[country rifle]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Fellow Henry Enthusiasts,

Even more food for thought.

I cannot comment on what will or will not void any warranty offered since I have not been in contact with Uberti or other such companies to confirm their policies. To date none of our riflemen have had any issues arise which would have involved the warranty. I would encourage each owner to verify that for himself.

However, some riflemen have procured an extra carrier as well as an extra bolt in order to have a converted configuration as well as an original configuration. The parts are not that hard to switch out and allow a rifleman the versatility to have a sixteen shooter for re-enacting or return it to its original configuration for live shooting.

Henry rifles used in the American Civil war were sixteen shooters. Sometimes a seventeen shooter depending on the ammunition used.

Sincerely,

Rob Leinweber

Fellows,


A little more food for thought, just bare in mind that to modify these new rifles voids any warranty offered.

[country rifle]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Fellow Henry Enthusiasts,

Actually we do maintain a very simple website. It is more of a way to make sure that we have some sort of a presence on the web. However, it is not any type of gathering point for our members.

http://www.geocities.com/country_rifle/icss.html

Nearly all of are planning, organizing and communications takes place via email and cell phone. Make technology work for you not the other way around.

This allows us to spend more of our time researching and re-enacting as opposed to spending time on a website.

Our particular organization is a cooperative effort among riflemen from all over the country. Different riflemen attend different events based upon what appeals to them. Sometimes we have had riflemen from West Virginia and sometimes we have had men from California. Our core group is located primarily in the states of Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota.

I am a bit puzzled by the request of wondering what a Henry Company looks like. To clear up any misconceptions a Henry armed unit would basically look exactly like all of the units around it. No special badge or insignia. The only difference would be the presence of a Henry of course and the lack of a bayonet.

Hope this helps.

Now back to the Henry discussion.

Sincerely,

Robert Leinweber
ICSS