Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

[country rifle]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Fellow Henry Rifle Enthusiasts,

A good piece of Henry information is free and available on line.

It is an excellent way for any of you who will be new to Henry ownership to get an idea of the piece of history you will be holding in your hands.

It is a lengthy read but it is jammed full of information and worth the time of anybody who is serious about Henry rifles.

You can thank Mr. Bresnan for making this available to the masses free of charge.

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/artic...t_hen_00.shtml

Warning! This may be considered material which may lead to a drift into "farb land." LOL!

My apologies for the momentary loss of restraint.

Enjoy!

Sincerely,

Robert Leinweber
ICSS

[trippcor]

Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

I have started this thread as a spine off from the Spencer and Henry Rifle WIG sponsored Bummers buy thread. The thread had moved off in two directions and I wanted to separate technical questions and information about the weapons (both original and reproduction) from the discussion about the Bummers Buy.

[M.Latham]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

Yes, they are different in bore diameters.

1855-1861 Springfield/ Harper's Ferry = .781-.783

Spencer rifle = .821

Sharp's rifle = .818

Spencer bayonets are also somtimes confused with Sharp's rifle bayonets.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

Hallo!

I was at the movies with my wife, seeing the new comedy "The Curious Case of Benjamin Button."

;) :)

Moderator hat on...

Rarely if never, does the full story and discussions of AC Forum moderators in taking action get shared here... If anyone feels a decision or action was wrong, please feel free to contact the site owner or administrators please.

Moderator hat off...

Let's see... catch up...

1. NUG, an Italian or Pakistani repro M1855 socket bayonet will NOT fit on a Spencer Rifle due to the diameter of its barrel. One can either shop in a trial-and-error effort to find one that does.
OR, as I did for mine, "Dremel" out the inside diameter of the repro bayonet to fit the Spencer. (That is tricky as one does not want to start with a too-thin socket wall thickness for obvious reasons...)

2. It would appear that Spencer rounds (as were Henry rounds with the exception of the rare or even non-issued "Henry box.") were often carried in standard .58 cartridge boxes retroffitted by replacing the tins with the appropriate size drilled out wooden blocks as was done for a number of the new metallic cartridge rifles and carbines).

Of course that is a mine field as to what may have been done in say 1863 versus what was done in 1868 using the same boxes.

The only known surviving image of Spencer armed Sharpshooters in the field is one of the 7th ICOVSS, and of course, one cannot see "inside" of their boxes.

3. I recall reading a posting once upon a time, of CAS/SASS Henry or Winchester lads removing the follower "head" and replacing it with a shorter one to allow the extra round. But I do not remember where or when that was. (a greater problem with the longer modern .45 Long Colt rounds or even .44 WCF over the nominal pointed or post 1864 blunt 1.35 inch long .44 Henry RF).

And I will not even mention shortening the magazine spring....

Curt

[country rifle]

Henry conversion

Fellow Riflemen,

The conversion of a modern Henry to a true 16 shooter does not require any modification to any other parts except the carrier and the bolt.

Such items as the "magazine spring" and "follower head" remain untouched.

That is what makes it so nice and quick with regards to swapping out parts to put it back into factory configuration with minimal cost in parts.

Rapid fire and authenticity at a price anyone can afford.

Sincerely,

Rob Leinweber
ICSS

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

Hallo!

"Rapid fire and authenticity at a price anyone can afford."

Authenticity...

What are the modifications again needed to shoot .44 Henry RF?

Just a-funnin'.

;) :)

Curt

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Let's rein this back in...

The M1860 was had a 15 round magazine capacity.

Where this has strayed across the No Farbery Line is in the post that either:

1. Did not know a Henry was a 15 round and not a 16 round rifle

or

2. Wanted to expand the magazine to add one more blank round for greater rapid fire.

I had given my answer based upon problems experienced in that the modern Henry repro's are not "authentic" .44 Henry RF but rather .45 Long Colt (CF) or .44 WCF (aka .44-40).
The magazine and the carrier/bolt is sensitive to overall cartridge length (case plus bullet), and gets complicated when .45 Long Colt, .44 Magnum, or .44 Special brass is used (subject to overal cartridge length).

"Modifying" for an additional blank round to give one an extra shot would be akin to modifying a Colt revolver for a seventh shot to get "one more shot off."

Curt

(Then as now, a cartridge could be placed in the chamber, making a Henry a "16 shot" arm. Does research and documentation show it was it done?)

[44 Henry]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

Let me post the correction to your post. Teacher Hat on(for 33 years)

1st there was never a M1860 in regards to the Henry Rifle. The designation M1860 is a modern designation used by today’s manufacturers and importers.

2nd the Henry rifle had a magazine capacity of 16 rounds plus one in the chamber for 17 when using the early Henry ammunition which was slightly shorter. The Henry had a 15 round magazine capacity when using the later cartridges of 1864 plus one in the chamber giving it a 16 round capacity.

Lorenzo Barker of the 66th Illinois Infantry WSS book is an excellent source of Henry information.

Andrew L. Bresnan
National Henry Rifle Company
7th Illinois Veteran Volunteer Infantry
66th Illinois Infantry WSS
ICSS

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Let's rein this back in...

The M1860 was had a 15 round magazine capacity.

Where this has strayed across the No Farbery Line is in the post that either:

1. Did not know a Henry was a 15 round and not a 16 round rifle

or

2. Wanted to expand the magazine to add one more blank round for greater rapid fire.

I had given my answer based upon problems experienced in that the modern Henry repro's are not "authentic" .44 Henry RF but rather .45 Long Colt (CF) or .44 WCF (aka .44-40).
The magazine and the carrier/bolt is sensitive to overall cartridge length (case plus bullet), and gets complicated when .45 Long Colt, .44 Magnum, or .44 Special brass is used (subject to overal cartridge length).

"Modifying" for an additional blank round to give one an extra shot would be akin to modifying a Colt revolver for a seventh shot to get "one more shot off."

Curt

(Then as now, a cartridge could be placed in the chamber, making a Henry a "16 shot" arm. Does research and documentation show it was it done?)

[Mike Nickerson]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

..... Authenticity...

What are the modifications again needed to shoot .44 Henry RF?

Just a-funnin'.

;) :)

Curt

Speaking of authenticity, I'm surprised that it looks like it's going to be a lop-sided purchase of Henrys vs. Spencers. A good estimate of the large weighting of Spencers over Henrys has been posted, yet the majority seems to be leaning toward the "Hollywood" side of the repeating rifle choice. This seems a little funny to me, given the AC's normal "tough love" approach to authenticity!

Mike Nickerson

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Not so much. The Gold Standard still remains. If a Henry or Spencer is what is researched and documented for the unit, time, and place being portrayed...

For example, I sometimes "do" Company "C" of the 7th Ohio ICVSS- a Spencer rifle armed unit.

Moderator hat off, teacher hat on...

Yes, there is no "M1860" designation for the Henry Repeating Rifle. Much like the "M1858" Remington revolver (M1863), or the "M1816" musket
(M1822), or the "Zouave" rifle (Remington M1863 Contract Rifle) and the legion of numerical and alphabet "typology" we use for identification and clarification- it is not right. Just modern hobby jargon.

And yes. What is documented as common practice of loading an "extra" round into the chamber to expand the magazine so as to be emulatable by reenactors/living historians?
An extra round can be added say, to a Spencer rifle's or carbine's chamber...

Hats off... ;) :)

Curt

[thad gallagher]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

I have a couple points I have been pondering on- would a soldier have gotten rid of his cap pouch after getting his Spencer, since he would not need it for firing? Or would he have kept it so he would not have been charged with losing it?

How or what would he haved carried to clean the Spencer- such as the barrel with no ramrod. Would one have gotten a seperate cleaning kit for that time, or did they Spencer come with such implements

Does anyone have a copy of the image of 7th Ohio sharpshooter? I have been searching with no luck.

Are there any good technical, type manuals or reference books on the Spencer?

Sorry for the bombardment of questions, I have been striking out trying to find research materials.

All the best.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

Hallo!

The image of the 7th Ohio ICVSS shows no cap pouches.

I do not know who has the original image that turned up in the early
1990's.
I have had a copy on the wall since then.

Curt
Company "C," 7th Ohio ICVSS

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

http://www.geocities.com/srhackettbr/7thovss2.jpg

Ta Da!

[Will Eichler]

Re: Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

Thad,

The best I've come up with is the book by Marcot on the Spencer, but that is out of print and goes for $70.00. I'm now saving pennies for that as well as for the rifle. Additionally, there is a chapter on the Spencer in John D. McAulay's :Civil War Breech Loading Rifles: A Survey of the Innovative Infantry Arms of the American Civil War" which I was recommended by Dan Wambaugh and have on order. I have two other books by McAulay and love them. He and I are from the same small town in the thumb of MI.

I too am looking for any info on cleaning the durn thing. I'm slowly getting items amassed as far as packaging the ammunition goes.

Best,

Will

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Henry & Spencer WIG Sponsored Bummer Buy

Tripp,
Harvey Cash showed me a similiar account from Wilder's Brigade of the men removing the tins from their old cartridge boxes, and also using pockets to hold rounds, b/c they often carried more rounds than their cartridge box could hold.

The only named 'Spencer' boxes that I have seen are the 'Navy' ones with oversized outer flaps that were shipped with the initial Navy order.

And in Marcott's book, he mentions a Cavalry Box, much like the Burnside, Smith, etc.

There is no mention of Infantry boxes. But like the quote above, for Infantry, I have only seen mention of regular boxes. Both Harvey Cash and Robert Becker confirm this.

John Walsh