Infantry NCO's sash

[19th TENN]

Could someone tell me how far down the NCO chain one would have seen the NCO sash? I've done limited readin' regardin' this issue, but cannot provide conclusive evidence to a recent challenge.

I'm of the opinion, per my research, that the lowests rank to don the sash would have been the sergeant. Any rank below would have been excluded. Correct?

My unit voted to join a large division group last month. This division is requirin' CO's/NCO's to wear their sash durin' Parade Dress. So in the spirt of Authenticity, I humbly request education from my peers.

Respectfully,

19th TENN

[CompanyWag]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

By regulation, all sergeants were authorized wool sashes and NCO swords. BUT even on "dress parade" they were a rarity...and practically unheard of once the war had commenced.

Paul McKee

[ajroscoe]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

From the 1861 U.S. Army Regulations, paragraph 1506: "For all Sergeant Majors, Quartermaster Sergeants, Ordnance Sergeants, Hospital Stewards, First Sergeants, Principal or Chief Musicians and Chief Buglers-red worsted sash, with worsted bullion fringe ends; to go twice around the waist, and to tie hind the left hip, pendent part not to extend more than eighteen inches below the tie."

This means that sergeants are not entitled to wear sashes, something many reenactors miss. Infantry sergeants are entitled to wear the NCO sword, though many units' ordnance records indicate only the First Sergeants and Staff NCOs were issued them.

All NCOs from sergeant up were entitled to wear the NCO belt with two piece buckle. Corporals, from most photos, wore the one piece enlisted buckle, no sword, and certainly no sash.

[CompanyWag]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

I stand corrected; thank you. Speaking without referencing can be dangerous. I never wore one as a sergeant of any rank, but did opt for the 1851 plate and belt from time to time.

However, from this perspective, the thought of any sergeants being required to appear on "parade" wearing sashes strikes me as a modern romantic notion of looking colorful rather than an historical practise. That is just my opinion and documentation for a certain regiment within a certain timeframe could prove otherwise...particularly for a southern regiment.

Paul

[ajroscoe]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

Paul,
I certainly agree that sashes were something that were lost once real campaigning started. When I have been a Sgt. Major, I rarely wear a sash for that very reason. Also, though there is more and more evidence that the NCO swords were still around in some numbers, by and large, the vast majority of NCO's did not carry them later in the war.

[RJSamp]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

I stand corrected; thank you. Speaking without referencing can be dangerous. I never wore one as a sergeant of any rank, but did opt for the 1851 plate and belt from time to time.

However, from this perspective, the thought of any sergeants being required to appear on "parade" wearing sashes strikes me as a modern romantic notion of looking colorful rather than an historical practise. That is just my opinion and documentation for a certain regiment within a certain timeframe could prove otherwise...particularly for a southern regiment.

Paul

And you'd be wrong. Plenty of references to 1st Sergeants and entire band/drum corps of Musician's shining brass, giving the uniform a brush off, blackening boots, and putting on their sash. Pictures too. I'm not talking in between volleys whilst fighting off the evil empire.

Frock Coat, Dress Hat, in camp, politician's and high falootin Generals visiting said camp kinds of stuff.

and don't forget the pretty white gloves.

Not outside of Chickamauga September 1863...but September 1863 Guard Mount in New Orleans proper? You betcha.

Always wished the NCO sash was Cardinal Red.....go Bucky!

[PieBoy96]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

Corporals, from most photos, wore the one piece enlisted buckle, no sword, and certainly no sash.

Right, you see Corporals wearing two piece belts sometimes. The photo of the 149th PA in Nov. '64 comes to mind (Call #:LC-B817- 7388):

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cwpb/04300/04385v.jpg

Interestingly, only the 1st Sgt. wears rank insignia in this photo.. and it's just the diamonds.

[CompanyWag]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

Easy there RJ! I don't mean to rain on anyone's dress parade.

Of course sashes, swords, berlin gloves and even shoulder scales survived until the end of the war in very limited ceremonial and full dress circumstances. If you can historically document it for a certain scenario, then by all means indulge in all that military pomp and pagentry.

The original poster said:

My unit voted to join a large division group last month. This division is requirin' CO's/NCO's to wear their sash durin' Parade Dress. So in the spirt of Authenticity, I humbly request education from my peers.

He didn't specify whether they portray federal or confederate, early war or late, campaign or garrison, The Ragamuffin Redoubtables or the Bay State Bluebloods. He merely said COs & NCOs were being required to wear the sash during dress parade. To me, this smacks of a modern commander thinking about what looks pretty rather than what's historically appropriate. Of course this is only my opinion. My apologies if I have offended.

Paul McKee

[CaptainPinson]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

where the sashes only for dress parade or did they wear them all the time?

shane

[den.bolda]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

This may be a silly question, but it warrants asking because I saw it on a color plate.

Would a sergeant wear the sword and bayonet together?

Den

[Silas]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

My recollection is that Ralsa Rice of the 125th Ohio carried both for quite a long time. He wasn't very fond of his sword. Story is in the book, "Yankee Tigers: Through the Civil War With the 125th Ohio." I never owned the book, but have seem some passages in it. Someone else here may be kind an include how he finally was rid of his sword.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

My recollection is that Ralsa Rice of the 125th Ohio carried both for quite a long time. He wasn't very fond of his sword. Story is in the book, "Yankee Tigers: Through the Civil War With the 125th Ohio." I never owned the book, but have seem some passages in it. Someone else here may be kind an include how he finally was rid of his sword.

I was about to point out Ralsa Rice! Rice was a sergeant and when the 125th Ohio made it's first "big march" from Nashville to Franklin in 1862, sergeants were wearing NCO swords. Rice's company was deployed as skirmishers to drive off some CS cavalry in Franklin and he waded the Harpeth River at a spot where the opposite bank was too steep to climb and there were no roots or branches to grab. He drove his sword into the river bank and used it as a step and abandoned it there, apparently glad to see it gone as "lost in battle".

[Dan Dixon]

Re: Infantry NCO's sash

Question for what may be a dead thread. Does anyone know of anywhere I could possibly get a custom made NCO sash? I'd like to find one a bit longer and possibly larger acorns if that is the word for them. Thank you, Dan Dixon, joinreynoldsbatteryl@gmail.com