Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

[sthabig]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Would that one contemporary hat maker be Tim Bender?

Thanks,

Tyler

[sthabig]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Ok,

So I've found out basically that a lot of things are wrong with my hat. I have modern glue holding the lining on and I had "invisible" thread holding the ribbon on. Is it worth it to go ahead and try to fix these things?

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what to do about the lining and to remove the glue if possible?

I really don't want to have to get a new hat, but if thats the only option...

Thanks,

Tyler Habig

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Tyler,

The hat I am wearing in my avatar was purchased from Fall Creek Sutlery in the mid-1990's. I ripped out the acetate lining and sweatband and used them as patterns to make my own replacement. I resewed the brim-binding myself.

When I wore it to the 135th Sharpsburg event, several guys went out of their way to comment on it (remember: this was the era of the "Hardcore Lookover" where guys would do a "full-body optical scan" of your impression before deciding how to address you in conversation), asking if it was a Tim Allen hat.

It was one of my favorite hats for a long, long time, until I gave it away two years ago to a local kid who was getting into the hobby.

Nutshell:
As long as the hat body (the felt part) is acceptable, everything else can be fixed. Replace the fishing line with cotton thread. Not sure about the glue part, but if you can't see it, don't sweat it.

Would I advocate "if you can't see it, don't sweat it" normally? No.
But you've bought the hat and don't have the money for a replacement. You can do things to fix it up. Maybe you've got a $50 hat and a $50 lesson, rather than a $100 hat. However, nobody's hat is worth what they paid after the money has changed hands with the hatter.

[sthabig]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

John,

Do I need to replace the brim binding? It is machine sewn.

For the record this would be my first time ever to take on a project myself so I have a couple questions...

As for the lining do I simply take a needle and some cotton thread and sew just beneath the surface of the felt inside the hat?


The leather sweatband is hand-sewn on....is there something else that should takes its place or is it ok?

Thanks again for everybody's input and if someone's got an idea for that glue give me a shout.


Thanks,

Tyler Habig

[sthabig]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Well,

You know what...after taking a look at the pics of the guy with the Tim Bender hats for sale my hat and his look very similar as to the brim binding and leather sweatband. Obviously comparing a repro to a repro isn't the best way to go, but if Mr. Bender is as good as everyone says, it must mean something.

So scrap those questions unless an original says otherwise, but the others still stand.

Thanks,

Tyler Habig

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Hallo!

"Do I need to replace the brim binding? It is machine sewn."

Not necessarily, unless the original hat you are copying had hand-sewn edge binding.

Even with the U.S. dress hat, the time and convenience of the single needle sewing machine was used to do the two rows of edge binding.

In brief and to over-generalize...

Yes, leather sweat bands are typical, however, in modern repro hats they often are too thick. This is complicated as "Moroccan" leather, often maroon, is hard to find these daze. Some lads substitute pigskin, but most go with a thin leather split. The sweat band is tacked, sometimes with a whip stitch on its bottom edge, into the felt of the hat (without piercing all the way through.

Linings seem to fall into two "styles." The first being a solid affair, and the second being a continuance of the 18th century style of having an opening adjusted with a drawstring at the crown to adjust for comfort as well as size as to where/how it rides on the head. The lining is also tacked partially but not all the way through the felt, aboout half way or so under the sweat band.

Again, flying fast and loose here...

Curt

[sthabig]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Curt,

Thanks for the useful information. To my eyes the leather lining looks pretty darn thin. I'll try putting that liner in too.


Thanks,

Tyler Habig

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Tyler,

Curt covered it pretty well. I restitched my brim binding because I trimmed down the hat brim. If you don't have a problem with how it looks, then I'd leave it alone.

[Edwin Carl Erwin]

[QUOTE=sthabig;135708]Would that one contemporary hat maker be Tim Bender?QUOTE]

Tyler,

Can't comment about Mr. Bender's hats other than I understand the artistry of workmanship matches a top shelf reputation.

The only commercial hat maker for the world-wide market that stitches in their linings is Borsalino. They've been around (Alessandria, Italy) since 1857 & make very fine, handcrafted hats. Mind you, Borsalino is a large market hatter, not a living history market hatter.

Here are sources for millinery ribbon:
N. American sources:

California Millinery Supply Co. 213-622-8746 www.californiamillinery.net/

Hats by Leko 1-800-817-HATS www.hatsupply.com/

Hyman Hendler & Sons 212-840-8393 www.hymanhendler.com

Millinery Supplies Co. 214-742-8284 www.milliners.com

The Hat Site www.thehatsite.com/

Manny's Millinery Supply 212-840-2235 www.mannys-millinery.com/



British sources: Be aware that what the British call "petersham" is what Americans refer to as "grosgrain" millinery ribbon. This linguistic variation is an example of what George Bernard Shaw referred to as, "Two peoples separated by a common language".

Baxter Hart www.baxterhart.co.uk/ribbonsandhps.html

Vintage Millinery Supply www.tias.com/10623/InventoryPage/1635636/1.html.

MacCulloch & Wallis (London) Ltd 0171-409-0725 www. macculloch-walli s.co.uk/

A good quality fur felt hat is always worth the effort to renovate. Wouldn't waste a minute on reworking a wool felt hat.

Regards,

[Kanawha Riflemen]

Tyler, I am in the same boat as you are. I bought mine back in the summer because I wanted something else besides a kepi for living history events where I work at. Billy has treated me well and the battlefield staff. I own two kepis that Billy made and a few that Greg Starbuck made and always leaned more towards Greg, but this kind of burns me up. You pay top dollar for something from a guy who has a good reputation and then you find out it’s not 100% correct. Billy has tons of knowledge and I respected him for that. Looks like we’ll be doing business with some one else or paying a bit more attention to detail. So, don’t feel bad. To all those who contributed the good information here, thank you because you are now helping two people.

John A. Miller
_____________________
Monterey Pass Battlefield
South Mountain State Battlefield
Heritage Development Committee, OMF

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Hallo!

Just as an aside...

Sometimes it is matter of makers being "stuck in time," meaning that the level or percentage on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection gets fixed in terms of striving for or achieving Period raw materials, Period patterns/models/forms and methods of construction or manufacture (or how and what the Hobby accepts as "okay" or "good enough" or "close enough" at the Moment).
A maker or vendor may be Number one or High On the List in say 1985 only to find that other newcomers have taken things further along in say 1995 or 2005.

Plus, as with many reproduction items- sometimes there is a discussion as to what a hat costing $20, $85, $150, $300, or $450 actually offers.

Curt

[Kanawha Riflemen]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Curt,

Your point is very well said. I couldn’t agree with you more. I know that I preach to my guys that I re-enact with about quality and what you pay is what you get, just a little more attention needs to be given to the smaller details. Thank you Curt! At least Tyler and I know how to make it our hats correct.
_____________
John A. Miller
Monterey Pass Battlefield
South Mountain State Battlefield
Heritage Development Committee, OMF

[Carolann Schmitt]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Mr. Erwin,

Perhaps we're using the adjective "commercial" differently, but the linings on Mr. Bender's hats are sewn, not glued.

And there are many sewists who know that modern petersham and grosgrain are two different ribbons, manufactured in different ways, and that the two terms are not necessarily used interchangeably. :)

Regards,

[sthabig]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

John,

I'm glad someone else out there understands my situation on a personal level. I too bought mine in the summer at Gettysburg actually to replace my farby forage cap. Always my downfall, I am a compulsive buyer and when I saw Dirty Billy selling those hats I went up and bought one. But on the other hand, I should be able to fix it up to my liking (meaning proper construction) as best I can.

The thing is I didn't spend $50 bucks here, I spent good $100.

Everything would be great if I could only get that darn glue off!

Thanks,

Tyler Habig

[sthabig]

Re: Repro vs. Original Civilian Hat

Edwin,

Thanks for the sources.

-Tyler Habig