CS Hooded overcoat

[High-Private]

Hi,

I am thinking about making a hooded overcoat based on the Weller pattern. I have search the past threads and have read that both jean cloth and kersey were used in overcoats at that time. I know that a coat made from kersey would be warm, I am curious to hear from folks that have one made from jean cloth and how warm are they? If I am going to make the coat that I want it to be warm and period correct.

Thanks,

Kevin Coyle
4th Texas Recruit

[Enfilade]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

Hi,

I am thinking about making a hooded overcoat based on the Weller pattern. I have search the past threads and have read that both jean cloth and kersey were used in overcoats at that time. I know that a coat made from kersey would be warm, I am curious to hear from folks that have one made from jean cloth and how warm are they? If I am going to make the coat that I want it to be warm and period correct.

Thanks,

Kevin Coyle
4th Texas Recruit

Kevin,

The Weller Overcoat pattern can be obtained from County Cloth with no problem. The problem is that if you copy the Weller Overcoat I would advise against using kersey because the original was grey jeans. And, you are really limited to when and where to wear it since it is specifically a Western Theatre/Fort Donnelson area/2nd KY item. This overcoat was issued specifically to David F. C. Weller's 2nd KY Infantry in 1861. It was made specifically for a wealthy Louisville businessman who happened to be Major of the 2nd KY, AND- he bankrolled this unit specifically with these overcoats to be outfitted for the winter of 1861. Weller was never in the Eastern Theatre.

So, if I were you I would probably make a caped variety of overcoat similar to other versions of Confederate overcoats made like the Curtis Overcoat, or better yet, get a reputable maker to provide me one. Or if you are dead set on kersey, just get a Yankee overcoat as there are several makers that provide them.

Just trying to help. Good luck,

Mark Berrier
North State rifles

http://www.northstaterifles.com

[lukegilly13]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

Kevin,
I've had both types of overcoats. The hooded Kersey overcoat is indead warmer....however, it is much much heavier. The warmth in the weller is the hood. It blocks the wind from going down your collar...yes, this can be achieved by wearing a scarf and wrapping a cape around your head, but to me the cape was inconvenient and uncomfortable. The weller is much more like a modern car coat with a nice box-like cut to it. To add to the warmth of mine I varied slightly from the original Weller coat having it lined with undied wool flannel.
I would agree that the overcoat was made specifically for that unit and this could limit its use...however, was it made from a popular civlian pattern? If so, one could argue that they were readily available in other fabrics. Furthermore, if it were a popular civlian style it could even broaden its use as in year/theater.

[High-Private]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

Hi,

Thank you for the informaton. Sounds like I will need to do more research into the style of civilian overcoats and cloth.


Kevin Coyle
4th Texas Recruit

[High-Private]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

And if they would have been used in the ANV.

[estephenson]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

The overcoat is not an issued item, but rather a garment that was readily available in the civilian market. It is a workman's overcoat. The theater of use does not enter into it. The only negative I would see is the over abundance of this pattern in any theater.

As a side note if you need any help with anything else in your impression, I am a former 4th Texan from the age of Don.

[Enfilade]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

[QUOTE=estephenson;138396]The overcoat is not an issued item, but rather a garment that was readily available in the civilian market. It is a workman's overcoat. The theater of use does not enter into it.

I beg to differ sir.
The 2nd Kentucky Infantry was indeed issued this coat. It was not an anomole to just Weller or a few in the 2nd Kentucky, or a group of civilians offering them warmth, etc.Z(IMHO). It was described by Ed Porter Thompson in his "History of the Orphan Brigade":

"When the winter campaign of 1861 opened, the Confederate Government had not found it possible to furnish such clothing as was absolutely necessary to protect its soldiers from the riggors of a winter in Kentucky and Tennessee, and Major Hewitt generously supplied every man in his own regiment with an excellent overcoat, at enormous expenditure, which has been variously estimated at from ten to twenty thousand dollars; and the command was thus rendered more comfortable during the bitter trial at Donnelson, in which the elements seemed to combine with the efforts of the Federal forces in visiting suffering and destruction upon the unfortunate garrison."

Now, we don't know for certain if this is the same overcoat as Weller's, but the evidence sure points that way. And if there is another such overcoat anywhere out there similarly made, no one has found it yet. But we do know that the Orphan Brigade fought exclusively in the Western Theater. And we do know that the 2nd KY Infantry was issued a Civilian Overcoat made specifically for them. Bought and paid for by it's Major. Does that make it an exclusive event oriented garment? In my opinion it does. Does that mean that no other overcoat was similar to it? No. But if you are using the same pattern, fabric, etc., and making the "WELLER OVERCOAT", then why would you not make the "Weller Overcoat"? I don't care to have to make excuses why I'm wearing a garment at an event or explain the possibilities why it could be appropriate when its really not. Now, can we say without question another like it in the civilians hands never existed? Of course not. But you have to admit that this issued garment that is named the "Weller Overcoat" because of it's wearer, was specifically issued, and specifically worn, and was specifically made.

Sorry, but I must differ in my opinion with you as this was an "issue garment".

Regards,

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles

http://www.northstaterifles.com

[csabugler]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

I made mine about 12 years ago, before so much info was available on the internet and such. Made mine out of C Childs' grey jean, with ticking lining. It is very warm. I refer to it as "the heat wave".

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

Here is an 1864 fashion plate illustrating two hooded overcoats.

[estephenson]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

As with most confederate "issued" items they trace there linage back to civilian styles of the period. "Richmond" trousers are merely the fashionable patterns from France and adopted for military use. Greatcoats are a civilian leftover from the prior century and were still popular throughout the 19th century. Hooded overcoats were also a popular overcoat. Jean being the most prevalent fabric for overcoats during the war in the south also can not be disputed due to the blockade. It is a farce to believe that that coat only existed in one town's ready made market and not anouthers.

And thank you Brian for posting the images.

I just feel that reenactors, and really thats what this forum is full of, have tunnel vision of what was happening in the country during the civil war. If it is not an exact replica then it didn't exist. The problem with that mentality is that only a very small amount exists from what was produced. If you have a firm understanding of period methods and period materials you can have an impression much more sound in historical context then the biggest name sutlers selling you mass produced "authentic" gear. And if your group sits around talking about the linage of the garment you are wearing for an event then you have lost the core of the old "Hardcore" movement. Material culture is very important, but it is a means to an end of understanding the lives of the soldiers. I am sorry for going on a rant.

Eric

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

OK...couple questions:

First...please provide documentation on the following multiple statements:

As with most confederate "issued" items they trace there linage back to civilian styles of the period.

While this may be true in a few cases; it's good for us to review...exactly which issue items we're discussing, and how that conclusion is come to. For example, are we saying that the familiar martial "roundabout" jackets, coined by Les Jenson as Richmond Type I,II,III have roots in civilian styles. How about knapsacks (Mex. War style...British Trotter...etc.) I think you'll find in your research that frequently throughout history...the trend works in the opposite direction (civilian applications being developed from martial designs/products).

"Richmond" trousers are merely the fashionable patterns from France and adopted for military use.

Again, please provide documentation on this item...from France?? Not what was already present in the South?

Greatcoats are a civilian leftover from the prior century and were still popular throughout the 19th century.

No Doubt! However, we must be reminded that there were also several marshal styles that were used in service.

Hooded overcoats were also a popular overcoat.

Based on what?...I believe the trend in the foreign magazines of the period was to publish the "latest" styles or fads...think of how our modern fashion magazines work today...so if we're thinking that here in AMERICA, in the middle of the war, in 1864...that because a hooded overcoat suddenly became fashionable in France...that it suddenly was here in America, and in the South; I think this raises alot more questions than answers. It sure would be nice to find some images of all those civilians/soldiers wearing these things, especially given that this was the "in-thing".

Jean being the most prevalent fabric for overcoats during the war in the south also can not be disputed due to the blockade.

Most prevalant fabric for overcoats?? Again, what are we basing this statement on? This can be disputed...hell several mills in Virginia were producing all-woolen material (like the Crenshaw Woolen Mills in Richmond, prior to it's self-destruction, the Danville Woolen Mills, Charlottesville Woolen Mills, and the Staunton Woolen Mills). All the aforementioned Woolen Mills primarily were weaving all-wool material (source for the wool yarns appear to be both domestic, and import). Not to mention the 100s of 1000s of Yard of Wool and finished goods being imported from Europe: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ead.php?t=9078

No doubt, the blockade had a tremendous affect on the South, especially in 1864/1865 as the noose became tighter...but this is exactly during the period when said French Magazine with the hooded overcoat image would have been making it's appearance in America...again poses more questions than answers.

It is a farce to believe that that coat only existed in one town's ready made market and not anouthers.

Who knows? I didn't live back then, did you?

And thank you Brian for posting the images.

Yes, thankyou Brian for posting the 1864 French Magazine image of men in hooded overcoats; it might be a little more promissing if we showed that these were prevalent in civilian populace prior to the war years. The image is proof that some fop in France had a late-war idea making it acceptable for every Southern Soldier to sport the latest fashion of hooded overcoats (tongue in cheek).

As noted by Eric, we all get the tunnel-vision at some point or another...but that works both ways; for and against an arguement...

Bottom-line...did the use of these overcoats exists beyond the Orphan Brigade...who knows?...but there doesn't seem to be firm documentation for that arguement (beyond the clipping from a late-war French magazine)...so if you like it, make one...but be prepared for the grief you may recieve over such a decision (if not portraying the "documented" unit which recieved such coat").

Paul B.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

Folks,

This is an excellent discussion, and one Brian and I have had in the car on the way to and from many events and research trips. The key to this issue is context and availability. I am a firm believer in a loose interpretation of clothing and styles within the context of geographic availability and what was common during the period!

To illustrate this point, I am a huge fan of the uniform of the 3rd New Jersey Cavalry, a gaudy hussar uniform that earned them the sobriquet "The Butterflies." But while this uniform is awesome to look at, and the idea that a bunch of colorful guys armed with Spencer carbines could likely whoop anybody in front of them, I wouldn't show up to Shiloh wearing their kit. Nor would I show up to Petersburg wearing the overcoat issued to Private Weller in the first winter of the war. Now my example is certainly much, MUCH more extreme than the example of the Weller overcoat, but when selecting an item for your impression you must always put the item you're considering into context.

Allow me to explain further...There are several examples of surviving CS overcoats. Using EoG as a very cursory sampling we have five coats of the same basic style, some are overfrocks, some are the extended sack coat many know as an overcoat. Some have capes, some do not. I've also viewed a double breasted overfrock that was worn by a cavalry private in the ANV in the winter of '63-'64. Add to that the admittedly rare images of CS soldiers wearing overcoats and period illustrations of soldiers as well, and we begin to get a fairly decent picture of what we can consider to be a trend in CS overcoats, essentially an altered civilian pattern coat, either with a cape or without with a wide collar to protect the neck.

Now add to that sampling the Weller overcoat, a garment with STRONG provenance to the 2nd Kentucky during its service at Fort Donelson. This is an excellent garment for that impression. It's neat, useful, and definitely cool looking. But because it is the ONLY example of a hooded overcoat in CS use, born out in either surviving examples, original pictures, and period illustrations its use should be limited to only those people portraying the 2nd Kentucky at Fort Donelson. If it was a simple overcoat of a similar pattern and style as the rest of the sampling then its use would be appropriate for a much wider range of impressions. But everything about it points to it being a unit-specific item made for and issued to one unit at one specific time early in the war.

Placing this issue into the context of modern living historians we reach the crux of the problem, because a good pattern of this coat has been available for so long, it is more popular than any other single pattern of CS overcoat and is represented in the ranks at cold weather events to the point where an outside observer would reckon that this coat was issued to 25% of CS forces serving across the south throughout the war, not to one regiment serving in the west during the first winter! Instead, taken in the context of total overcoats worn during the war we can only say in iron clad terms that the Weller overcoat represents perhaps 1% (at best) of total overcoats used, and at worst was used only by one regiment during one winter of the war and represents merely a fraction of a percent.

Make what you will of my arguments, but simply give thought to the idea that wearing a garment that had a radical and unique feature at an event where the original was not actually present borders on the "if they'd had it they'd used it" motto.

Food for thought.


Best,

[lukegilly13]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

I agree with the arguments about why overcoats made on the pattern of the Weller is NOT common among confederates....but I'd also like to throw out more twists.

1. Support against: If we want to get into random sampling, then no period image is a random sampling because they are all biased (skewed to the folks that were there and had access to the photographer). We can only base our impressions on items that reoccur in many images unless we are portraying the folks pictured in the image. I think most folks on this forum can agree that the above statement is the best policy for period images...although it is much more complicated than that (prop images, photoshoots, etc). It's best to be able to back images with issue records or period written documentation of the particular unit portrayed.
Now, where this may be possible with some confederate groups, I would venture to say that the information is just not out there for a LOT of confederate units that we portray. So in that case, as Dan said, you have to sort through the surviving originals and see what patterns develop and try to create a more generic approach.

2. Support for using the weller: The folks making/requesting the overcoat to be made got the pattern from somewhere....do we know if it were available in a particular catalogue where the buyer picked it out? Is it possible he already had one that he found practical and decided to have it copied? I'm sure he didn't just dream it up. My understanding is that the officer (can't remember his name or rank) picked out the coat to be cloned for several soldiers. Furthermore, I think it goes a little further than the "if they could of they would of" argument. I think we know without a doubt it was available (because one survived). Those of us who own both types can argue that it is more practical (mine folds up much more nicely than the greatcoat and is usually plenty warm enough) and lets face it, the hood is nice on a windy or wet evening. So it's more of a "they could have, maybe possibly should have, but did they" argument. Also, it could be possible that they ARE photographed but the hood is covered by a bed roll or a knapsack and therefore missed (although most likely the collarless nature would draw attention).

3. Support against....I have a weller myself, but I live on the Kentucky line and often portray units from the same area as Weller....this doesn't make it okay or even okay for me to use this overcoat at events outside of Fort Donnelson. If it were that prominant in the ANV...i would think we'd see drawings of Yodas or descriptions of the thing somewhere (unless they were so common that people just said "overcoat" but then i'd think we'd see pictures).

Anyone want to buy a Weller? LOL

[Moose]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

There is a lot of disscussion here, but I find myself agreeing with Paul.
But here is food for thought:
- How many other common men's items of the period were hooded?
- PEC hats. Is wearing a hood 'up' condusive to the wearing of a wide brimmed hat?
- In the plates that were posted, the hats on the men seem to follow styles that became popular in the states following the war; so is it a new fashion trend?
- Define workman's overcoat. Given the fact that many of the jobs of the period we would consider 'laborur' jobs by today's standards, what outdoor/workman job would be condusive to a big hooded overcoat? Also, the men in the plates, do they look like workmen?

Just some questions. Try and find an answer, maybe we have all assumed wrong about the hooded overcoat.

Cheers!

[Ian McWherter]

Re: CS Hooded overcoat

Regarding "French" fashion plates. The hand colored plates were produced by French firms and published in numerous fashion publications American, Spanish, French, German, etc. The fashions featured in these publications were largely of English design and origin. English tailors collaborated closely with the French firms that made the plates. These plates were often published in monthly magazines catering specifically to the tailoring trade such as Edward Minister's Gazette of Fashion and Louis Devere's The Gentleman's Monthly Magazine of Fashion and Costumes de Paris. Both men were English tailors and prolific authors of fashion and the art of cutting. I own two complete years of Devere's Monthly Magazine of Fashion 1852-1853, what's interesting about these magazines, something most are unaware of, is they have for each fashion plate a page describing the featured fashions, what kinds of fabrics, cut, etc., and then there is a couple pages of pattern drafts for those very fashions. Many tailors subscribed to these magazines (which had very cheap subscription rates), every month they would place the new fashions in the windows of their shops, a customer would walk in and say they liked the coat in X fashion plate, the tailor would then reference the draft for that very garment and draft it out and make it up to the customer's measurements. So this whole idea that few people could ever look like a fashion plate is silly, tailors and clothing manufacturers had all the drafts for the garments featured in them.

How long did it take for these "Paris" or "London" fashions to hit main street? Only as long as a ship took to cross the Atlantic, then tailors and clothing manufacturers began making them up into real garments. Just how widely fashion was consumed and distributed is a matter of research. Here is E.A. Hulett's Tailor Shop in San Francisco early 1850s, he has his "French" fashion plates in his front window and stands ready to serve the next customer with the latest from London: