Wooden inserts in cartridge box

[newshirt]

What cartridge boxes would have had wooden inserts, with bored holes for each cartridge? Individual holes for each cartridge strikes me as a handy invention.

Would federal infantrymen have ever replaced the tin inserts with wood?

[Gallinipper]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Here is a look at a cartridge box (for carbine) which exhibits such an insert. However, it should be noted that tins were designed for more than just storage of powder & ball cartridges.

http://www.civilwarantiqueshop.com/l27.htm

Carbine Cartridge Box - The box is in good condition with all straps, buckles, wood insert drilled for 20 bullets, the maker is W. Kinsey & Co. Newark, NJ. Box had a US plate on at one time.

Rich Croxton

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Hallo!

IMHO, you are evolving the "infantry" cartridge box backwards or devolving it.

:) :)

Problems experienced during the 2nd Seminole War with the wooden block inserts of the Pattern 1828 box led to their deletion and replacement with tin inserts with the Pattern of 1839.

Carbine boxes were a bit different as there was need to be able adapt the standard type carbine box to be able to handle a wide range of un-primed carbine cartridges and new self-primed cartridges used by the new generation of breech-loading carbines with their individual and sometimes peculiar shaped and sized cartridges.

(However, after the War, there was a surplus of infantry cartridge boxes but new metallic cartridge breechloading infantry rifles of several different makes (say Springfield, Sharps, and Spencer for example) which saw infantry boxes being reworked or made new with wooden inserts once again.

Curt

[brown]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

US cartridge boxes prior to the 1839 pattern had drilled wooden inserts. Say the 1808 & 1828 patterns, plus many militia boxes, etc.

[Gallinipper]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Here is a neat example of a rather ornate pre-war militia box, with 24 individual tin inserts. More variations on a theme....

http://www.civilwarantiqueshop.com/l45.htm

Rich Croxton

[brown]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Rich,
That really is something! Any details attached to it?

[Gallinipper]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Yes, here you go....

Scarce Post-Revolution Cartridge Box - Nice early Militia brown leather cartridge box with 24 round tin insert. The size is 6 1/2" wide by 3 3/4" high by 2 1/2" deep, leather over-all excellent, showing very little wear & use, just honest age, only missing the closure strap, other wise, complete, leather just a tad dry, back straps & stiching good. Hard to date these, not much information out there, circa 1820's to 1840's, NICE early box.

Rich Croxton

[Garrett Silliman]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Rich,

That's cool, thanks for posting it. That is remeniscent of a dragoon "belly-box" with documented Rev War usage (Collectors Encyclopedia of the American RevolutionNewman and Kravic 1975). A series of tin tubes were stitched into a webbing framework, and I believe the idea was to allow the cartridges to be protected on horseback while maintaining some flexibility. Interesting example. -Garrett

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Time to dig this up...

I just stumbled upon what is believed to be an original Sharps rifle cartridge box, as used by Berdan's Sharpshooters, but with tin tubes soldered into place rather than the usual drilled wooden blocks. I didn't know what to make of this at first since the typical Berdan Sharps box has always been claimed as having wooden inserts, etc. This box shares the same dimensions as other Berdan Sharps boxes but has a number of unusual features.

For example, it has half-circles that look like they were hand cut into the box itself, I guess to allow a quicker means to remove the two tins and get to more ammo underneath. It also features buckles underneath for a shoulder belt but shows absolutely no evidence of the upper shoulder belt loops ever being in place or added later. The box has definitely been used; the waist belt loops are "pulled" from the weight of forty rounds and the backside of the outer flap has some crazing from being opened and closed repeatedly. The flap also shows evidence of once having a standard size plate attached rather than the smaller pre-war rifleman's box plate as found on at least one surviving Berdan Sharps box.

Forgive the odd details I've thrown in there...I am not an expert on Berdan cart. boxes since they are so scarce, and there may not be others here who can help compare, but the kicker is really the tin tubes. I just can't remember seeing these on any war-time box.

I'm waiting for permission to share the photos of this cartridge box but if anyone gets any ideas from the description please share!

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

It sounds to me like you are describing the Sharps carbine box.

Dave Myrick

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Rather than post the images individually, here is a link to the catalog. It's item SE-13, about half way down the page.

http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/civilwa...berCatalog.pdf

Not sure what it is but I've been looking back and forth between it and Sharps carbine boxes. There's some differences, for instance in the shape and size of the flap, how the closure tab is sewn, size of the implement pouch, and overall dimensions (at least what I see from eyeballing them).

I've emailed Dave Taylor, the collector who sold it, to try and bounce some discussion around.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Hallo!

Very interesting.
Thanks for putting it up.

In brief and to over-generalize...

The only other one I have seen is the Paul Johnson collection "Berdan" Sharps cartridge box.

These were made for the 1862 2,000 "Berdan Contract" NM1859 Sharps Rifle and made for Sharps by Emerson Gaylord of Chicopee, Mass.
They are essentially the M1841 Rifle box with the addition of the "Pattern of 1861" type rivets on the lower part of the waistbelt loops.
The Johnson Collection specimen has two tins, but the upper portion of the tins hold a removeable wooden block with ten holes for a presentation of twenty rounds. The front is not recessed for ease of withdrawing the tins.
And the finial is acorn-shaped. Etc, etc.

(Using a modified, "M1841" box, we struggled to make these about 13 years ago, but lacked the skill to drill out the blocks as the repro Sharps are
.54 and that called for a more critical "precision" in spacing and drilling the block holes- especially breaking through the thin sidewalls. We gave the research to a vendor who offers or used to offer the box sans tins/blocks.)

Curt

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Curt,

Does Paul still have that cartridge box, or is it spending quality time elsewhere? Also, one of the guys at the Mansfield show last weekend was telling me about Dave Jarnagin owning one...can't remember if that is rumor, truth, or if Paul's and Dave's are the same box.

I didn't see you at the show, but did you happen to see the Sharpshooter display in the second or third building? Yikes...what a firearms collection! They had a Berdan Sharps box on display but despite talking to those guys for over an hour I didn't have the nerve to ask to handle it....

....plus that protective mesh they had up was an effective barrier to keep my over-enthusiasm at bay. Earlier on Saturday I scored a Frank Packer Tiffany & Co. knapsack for original price and sold my last USSS and CS image.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

Hallo!

Actually I was there in Stealth Chameleon Mode as a co-vendor set up in the Pig Barn (their choice not mine).
I seem to have had a bad sense of timing in reliving wooden chair bite just when lads came round.

Yes, I saw the Berdan display. I was impressed as I have never seen more than one Berdan Contract NM1859 Sharps Rifle in one place before. And the first one on top was the nicest condition I have ever seen.

I have not spoken with Paul in.. hmmmmmm, five or six years plus so I do not what happened to the box.

Maybe the Packer pack is mine. Sell it back!

:) :)

Curt

[106th PVI]

Re: Wooden inserts in cartridge box

I have yet to see a Sharps Infantry Rifle box. Researching ordinance returns for the 42d Pennsylvania only revealed the rifles themselves and any items needed for repair. Plus ammo requisitions. Therefore I just used my
M1861 box for my impression when using the M1859 Sharps three band. Due to lack of evidence to the contrary.