Another Rust Question....I know, I know

[stx]

I hope this isn't a repeat question, but it seems as if all the other threads don't exactly address my problem. Due to lack of good field care and mother nature, I came back from Piney Woods with a 42 springfield that had varying degrees of rust, pretty much from muzzel to butt. The bright orange stuff I had no problem with, just took some scotch brite pads and oil and it cleaned it right up. But it seems as if over my entire rifle now there is a dark mellow brown tint. In some places its a lot more noticable than others, but there is definatly a tarnished look to it (I've attached a photo from the buck and ball group of an original sprinfield that looks a lot light mine is right now). I've tried everything I can think of to get rid of it, sand paper, more scotch bright, oiled it to hell, but nothing is helping. I thought it was just piting and there was nothing I could do about it, but from my understanding piting is like a bunch of little erosions, but the metal surface is still smooth on my rifle. Not getting into a debate on whether a worn look is authentic enough, is there anything that I've not done that can help clean this up, or am I just going to have to accept it will never be shinny again and move on?

[lojafan]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

Tim,

I had the same thing on one of my rifles. Go to your local sports store or possibly wal-mart (mine doesnt carry this stuff anymore), Kmart, Target or what have you and get a bottle of Birchwood Casey blue and rust remover. It should take it right off. I would also get a bottle of rust preventative made by the same company. If they have the rust preventative whipes, those work pretty good and is less messy. You will probably spend about $12 for both things.

Good luck!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

Hallo!

It would sound like your steel is on its way to a "rust-brown" patina.
What you see in the photo of the original is a mild case of "orange peel" pitting where the oxidation (rust) has eaten below the surace of the metal where it initially is black but will eventually turn brown.

Your metal with one exposure should not be orange peel black, as it should not have eaten that deeply yet- and what you have is just surface level oxidation brown rust discoloration.

Birchwood Casey's "Rust and Blue Remover" will work, as will old fashioned Naval Jelly. Some polishing compounds will work, such as the German "Flitz" or "Mother's" mag and aluminum wheel polish.

Birchwood Casey's and Naval Jelly being acidic have a tendency to dull steel into a flat gayish look which requires abrasive repolishing to get back to "bright" with steel wool, steel wool and oil, or progressive abrasive SCOTCH BRITE pads (which is actually a bonus as it replicates a period "armory struck bright" and/or a period maintianed look rather than the artificial mirror-like modern factory buffing wheel/buffing compound look.

Waxing/greasing your bare steel will help it avoid oranging, peach fuzz rusting, patinaing, rustings and pitting.

Curt

[stx]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

Thanks for all the help. I'll go after work tonight and get some naval jelly or birchwood casey's and give it a try.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

Hallo!

It would sound like your steel is on its way to a "rust-brown" patina.
What you see in the photo of the original is a mild case of "orange peel" pitting where the oxidation (rust) has eaten below the surace of the metal where it initially is black but will eventually turn brown.

Your metal with one exposure should not be orange peel black, as it should not have eaten that deeply yet- and what you have is just surface level oxidation brown rust discoloration.

Curt

How long are we talking before this "damages" the rifle? By "damages" I mean, how long before the rust becomes a problem that is no longer just cosmetic?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

Hallo!

"How long are we talking before this "damages" the rifle? By "damages" I mean, how long before the rust becomes a problem that is no longer just cosmetic?"

Dunno...

There is no chart or formula for the effects or rate of oxidation (rusting) other than perhaps the degree of exposure to environmental moisture as well as humidity in the air on unprotected iron/steel.

As part of the process, things "go brown" before they go fuzzy before they have surface rust going deeper to cause "orange peel" pitting, more extensive pitting, pits tending to spread and "grow" together, and the eventual destruction of the item into a a pile of iron oxide powder.

Back in the daze when I did not not "wax/grease" my bare steel, and used harsh modern chemical stripper cleaning solutions- I could see brown version of my fingerprints the next day in humid summers. And the appearance of bright orange discoloration film would appear the next morning after a "damp night" or "heavy dew" on the stacks.

NUG...

This discoloration is a "surface film" and is wiped off with the abrasive powers of flannel, wool, or jeans.
(And the more bright steel is kept lightly greased or Sweet Oil-ed, or even more petroleum based oil at home, the less prone it is to oxidation.)

When iron/steel has rusted enough to wear it is not a surface film or surface discoloration, and the integrity of the metal itself has started to be compromised by rusting enough to disrupt the surface either as "fuzz" or worse yet "pits..."

Then, the atomic level changes in the iron atoms/molecules change what was brown to black in the pits. Subsurface pits can only be polished or abraded away by lowering the surrounding metal to the level of the bototmof the pits- which is tricky and self-limiting (and damaging to the collector's resale value).

My worse experience, and shock involved a rainy weekend. At the end of the event, I towelled dried my M1855 RM, and hosed it down wet with WD-40 and placed it in its hard shell traveling crate.
We extended the weekend and hit a few CW battlefields in the area for an extra three days.

When I got home and went to put the '55 away, I opened the case and found a fuzzy orange and brown surprise. There was no bright steel to be seen, everything had rusted.
And had rusted deep enough to leave black stains and speckling (the stage prior to pits).

Disassembling the gun, it took hours at the buffing wheel with buffing compound to bring it back "armory bright."

Lesson learned? Oil floats on water. So does protection.

The Good News is that routine and regular maintenance- injcluding what was done during the Civil War is sufficient to prevent "damage" unless the gun is abused and particularly ignored or neglected for weeks, months, and years.
Or like a member of one of my second unit did, leave his musket outsdie leaning against a tree when not at an event for that "authentic look..."

Curt

[lukegilly13]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

I just did a defarb on a '42 springfield that had similar black speckling on the musket...I left it there wherever possible to make it look more like it should have by the 1860's. I guess my question is if I keep it oiled regularly and stored correctly and maintained in the period method while in the field should the musket be okay? Or, should I get a buffing compound or the blue and rust remover cited above and take that speckling out? I realize that this is not the "authenticity" folder....but at the time of the defarb I determined that with the help and recommendations of many that "armory bright" on a '42 would not be correct in '61....but I also don't want to look in the gun cabinet one day and find out that my nice speckling has turned to pitting beneath the oil!

[ajhamler]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

I've been pleased with a solution to rust problems that I borrowed from my woodshop. I'm a woodworking writer, and I frequently get rust on the cast-iron surfaces of my tablesaw, jointer and other tools. My shop isn't air conditioned, so in the summer months if I'm not careful I leave rusty handprints and sweat-drips everywhere. I do a lot of photography in my shop and need all my cast iron surfaces bright and clean.

For removing rust and those black marks left behind after getting rid of the rust, I use Boeshield Rust-Free. Just spray it on, wait a few seconds, and wipe it off. Or for routine rust maintenance you can spritz a rag once or twice and use the rag. Once I get rid of the rust I use Boeshield T-9 for rust prevention.

I've used both on my muskets with excellent results, but be aware that the company does NOT recommend the use of Rust-Free on guns. However, I've found that when used sparingly -- a little bit on a rag -- that it removes rust with no detrimental effects. For woodworking equipment, I might leave it on the surface for 30 to as much as 60 seconds, for my muskets it's literally a fast wipe-and-go and nothing more. Repeating, the company does NOT recommend that, but I've had no problems. YMMV.

One the other hand, T-9 is indeed recommended for guns by Boeshield, as well as by a number of hunting suppliers. A mix of lubricants and paraffin, T-9 tends to leave a very thin waxy coating that you may not like. You can't see the coating -- it's clear. I've found that it makes the musket quite grippable, even with sweaty hands. T-9 does eventually rub off -- which is why I still get rust sometimes on the tablesaw table, since feeding wood across it for hours on end can rub it off -- but while it's there iron and steel are nearly rustproof.

Both products come in sizes from tiny spray bottles to gallon jugs. Not sure if Home Depot and those places carry it, but they might. I get mine at a specialty woodworking store. I imagine you can buy it online, too. Most gun suppliers carry T-9.

A.J. Hamler

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

Hallo!

"I just did a defarb on a '42 springfield that had similar black speckling on the musket...I left it there wherever possible to make it look more like it should have by the 1860's. I guess my question is if I keep it oiled regularly and stored correctly and maintained in the period method while in the field should the musket be okay?"

"Or, should I get a buffing compound or the blue and rust remover cited above and take that speckling out?"

IMHO, the answers are... yes.

:) :)

A. Yes because: Black speckling is the signature of rusting that discolored the metal as the precusor to pitting (and eventully the black iron oxide in actual pits).
It would be present in say the Period gun in the field, where the circumstances were such as a protracted campaign or battle situation where there was no time for day sor weeks for the niceties of polishing maintenance and wet weather had allowed for rust to go that one stage deeper.

B. And yes because the more NUG, probable, typical appearance of a weapon being maintained in a Period manner would not have NUG allowed it to get "that far" or stay in that state of condition except for situations such as "A: above.

Plus, with the case of M1822's and even some M1842's, there is always the possiblity of the question of what physical condition was the gun in when it left the Northern or Southern armory or arsenal to be issued?

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[stx]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

I tried out the naval jelly this afternoon. I tested it out on the butt plate, which although didn't have the biggest problems it had a great deal of fine brown speckling that I couldn't get off by conventional means. It looks a lot better, and it definatly has a nice dull gray look to it. It still looks a little speckled but now it's different shades of gray instead of gray and brown. Thanks for the help and I'll do the rest of my rifle in the upcoming week.

[Camp_Randall]

Re: Another Rust Question....I know, I know

I've had great success using emery paper from the hardware store. I lube up the musket with a mix of olive oil and rottenstone, then polish it out with the emery paper. I use the finer granulation, although I can't remember which one I use of the top of my head.

I like this method because the Manuel for maintaining the Rifle Musket mentions emery cloth for polishing steel. (and rottenstone and sweet oil for brass) I don't get a mirror polish that you would get with modern chemicals, but I think it accurately portrays what a musket would look like in the field.

Tim Surprenant