"Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

[AZReenactor]

I have a couple new bender P1858 Army hats on the way and plan to dress them out with all the trimmings depicting pre-war (58-61) issue hats, one infantry and one cavalry.

I'm just starting to look for information and would appreciate any suggestions of where to look. I found very limited info in the CRRC and am just starting to dig through MC&H and other sources.

I've already accessed "The M1858 Uniform Hat" (and MOAM article) by Scott Cross, Paul McKees "More than Making the hat fit", Gordon Chappell's "Dress Hats of the 1st Regiment of Mounted Rifles, 1858-1861", "Hat Cords of the U.S. Army" by Ross & Emerson, and I have Howell's United States Army headgear 1855-1902on reserve at the library.

I'd like to hear from those who've had opportunity to examine originals. I understand from word of mouth that at least some of the eagle's had a little hook with a corresponding thread loop on the hat for looping up the side. Any one have any photos or information regarding this? I also understand that they also used wire loops and leather things to attach the brass not just the bent wires as seen on most sutler row insignia.

And while I don't want to turn this into a "who makes the best..." type thread, I would appreciate vendor recommendations for the brass or other trimmings. Anyone out there making the reverse facing eagle for mounted hats as is mentioned in the CRRC?

Again thank you ahead of time for any assistance you can offer.

[Matt_E_Wright]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

While I haven't had the opportunity to examine many originals, I'll chime in.

Langellier & Loane's book on U.S. Army headger has a photo of the back of an original hardee hat eagle on pg. 80. The eagle has two brass loops aligned along the eagle's vertical axis. Below the bottom loop is a hook for looping up the brim.

I have never seen a reversed enlistedman's eagle. I have however seen officer's embroidered eagles that have been reversed.

The photos below show the inside of a forage cap with company letter. The letter has a single brass loop and is attached to the crown via leather thong:

http://authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23000

I'm sure there are some collectors of originals out there that can chime in. S&S Firearms often has original brass insignia. Hayes Otupalik offers originals form time to time as well. They may be good sources to call and ask regarding numbers of looped v. wired insignia that they've run across over the years.

9 years ago, I modified mine by soldering on the brass loops. Since then, no one, at any event, has ever noticed.

Matt Wright

[AZReenactor]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

Matt,
Thank you for the information. The photo of the loop on the Company Letter is what I was talking about and very helpful. While people in the field may not take notice, it may be noticed when museum visitors are handling the item or when I am pulling the brass off for polishing. Whether noticed or not, it is the little details that really make a difference for me.

I've found a few photos and other references that I'll try and post soon.

[jdanner723]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

I have heard of these types of company letters elsewhere though I can't remember where at the moment. Ever since then I have been interested in finding a good source from which to buy them. I know the best route is to probably buy originals, but even some of the originals I've seen, namely at the Horse Soldier in Gettysburg, have had the prongs that are seen on most reproduction letters and numbers. If anyone knows where these letters can be found I think it would greatly benefit a lot of people.

I did find an infantry cord from S&S Sutler in Gettysburg. Mrs. Sheads explained to me that the cords were copied from an original and were constructed to be the exact size originals were. The best I can tell the color and style seem to be correct, however be forewarned that it may be too long to pull snug to the base of the Hardee hat. When I first put mine on, i had to loop the excess 3 or 4 inches of hat cord around the base of the hat. I can send you pictures if you wish, but I just opted to take the cord off. I hope this helps you in your search.

[David Fox]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

The Old Army trick to deal with too-long hat cords was to tie the ends into a loose knot in front of the slide. I don't have the regs in front of me, but as I recall they always called, year after year, for the M1858 dress hat cords' slide to be centered at the side of the wearer's head, behind the looped-up portion of the brim. Thus the tassle ends would peek out from the front/side and back/side and too-long wouldn't be an issue. I'm prepared to be corrected, but I believe wearing the cord slide and tassles centered in front was an almost universally indulged impropriety.
As to the brass letters, numbers, and branch of service symbols, in the earlies of reenacting originals is what we used and they universally had wire loops to affix them to our headgear. Blasphamy as it now sounds, most folks I knew clipped the wire loops to avoid having to cut a slice in the headgear, merely punching the stubby clipped ends through and bending them.
I own an original M.1858 dress hat and, tho' well worn, it showed no evidence of ever having brass affixed.

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

Hi all

It is not too awful hard to do change out the wire in the back of repop letters and hat devices.

I have been doing this for quite a few years since the vast majority of sutlers stopped carying these a few years back. 25 years ago all the sutlers I had seen had the correct backs on the brass. But since then for some reason or another, they would either cliped the loops open for customers at the time of percase, or had their hat brass made with unlooped wire attachments.

S&S Firearms and many sutlers still have the correct stampings. Many stamped off the original dies owend by Nagatuck Novelty Co.

It only takes knowing how to do soldering & be able to get the right size wire for making the loops on a gig and soldering them on to the back of the hat plates and letters. This does take a little practice and finess, bu tnot hard to do.

I have done this for mine, and others hats over the years and have the letters held on by the leather "keys" that hold them to the given hat. As well as setting up the enlisted eagle plate with the hook on the bottom for looping up the hardee hat brim.

Once added to ones hat, the results look greatand is a nice touch

Don S

[CompanyWag]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

I have in my collection an original enlisted eagle with loops on the reverse and the brim loop on the bottom. When purchased, it was affixed to a cavalry Hardee hat I purchased years ago from George Lower (aka The Gettysburg Sutler), but I have reason to believe that this was one from a packet of unissued eagles that hit the collector's market about the same time. FWIW, the lower brim loop was simply hooked into a small cut in the brim. I have no documentation if that is a period practice or if a thread loop sewn to the brim is more period correct. I wouldn't be surprised if both methods were used.

Paul McKee

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

Hi Paul,

The 2 original Hardees (One Cavalry & one Infantry) I have seen have the sewn loop for the hook on the eagle side plate. I have not seen a hat with the small cut in the brim before.

It dose make sense from a practical point of view.

I wonder though how sturdy a cut in the brim would be. I would think that it would cause the brim to be prone to tearing if the looped up side of the hat was to be some how caught or knocked hard on something, maybe not.

I agree with you, I would think both practices would have been seen though. Although, I wonder about if the sewn loop / modifying the hat for the side plate would have been up to the soldier, or was it put on the hat when made by the contractor?

I suppose it would mean a survey of known issued hats Vs known unissued hats.

Don S

[Matt_E_Wright]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

I haven't checked into the accuracy of this oft sited article personnally, but the below indicates that unlike accouterments, brass insignia was not (normally?) installed on dress hats by contractors:

http://authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1094&highlight=hat+brass

If the blanket statements made in the above article are correct, namely that dress hats were never furnished with hat brass, then I would think it reasonable to asusme that there would be a great deal of variation present on surviving examples.

As to the sewn loop, if the hat was furnished plain, wouldn't there need to be a loop on both sides, in order to accomodate future potential use by either dismounted or mounted troops?

Matt Wright

[Matt_E_Wright]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

As has happened time and again, additional research has shown "blanket" statements to be unreliable.

A search of the digitized civil war newspaper hosted by Penn State indicates that while the Army often contracted for hats and trimmings seperately, they occaisionally contracted for furnished hats as well, as evidenced by the attached proposal from the NY Depot calling for (among many other items) "hats, trimmed, infantry."

Matt Wright

[CompanyWag]

Re: "Hardee" Hat Trimmings?

For the sake of illustration, here are photos of the eagle I have. Note the brim hook at the bottom. The near mint condition did not match the condition of the other insignia or the hat itself. It is my belief that this eagle was post-war applied to the hat it came on. The dealer this was bought from at the time was also selling individual eagles from an unopened package wrapped in paper. You do the math. Still a good example of a hat eagle nonetheless.

Paul McKee