rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

[ohio volunteer]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

Did a quick google search...Linked is a NPS brochure about the found ramrods on the battlefield of Port Gibson... http://www.nps.gov/shil/historyculture/upload/ARPA.pdf

[KPavia]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...W1GKLWMJHwuYIC

This is a picture of Confederate dead in the Petersburg trenches, and if I'm not mistaken, the musket in the picture does not have a ramrod.

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

This is a picture of Confederate dead in the Petersburg trenches, and if I'm not mistaken, the musket in the picture does not have a ramrod.

Which proves the original owner of that musket did not return the ramrod because...

a) He was killed before he could
b) He ran and abandonded both in flight - this was a retreat after all
c) the musket was propped up for the image like so many other staged photographs of the period.

I don't see a line of ramrods stuck head up in the trench to surmise a belief that the practice of not returning the ramrod to its channel in the musket was prevalent in this area.

[KPavia]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

The musket being used as a prop does not explain the absence of the ramrod. It only shows that the ramrod was not with the musket.

There are plenty of reasons that we can come up with to attempt to explain the lack of the ramrod, and unless we find first hand accounts explaining what some soldiers did in battle, we'll never be able to "prove" any of them.

This picture, in my mind, just makes the idea of soldiers not returning the rods during battle a bit more believable but its not the only premise that it lends support to. It doesn't establish the fact that they stuck them in the ground while firing; only that for whatever reason, there are instances of muskets being without their ramrods. In other words, its a small step or two closer to being able to know why the ramrods are missing even if we won't ever truly know exactly why.

Here are a few more photos that show the rifle without the ramrod-
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cwpb/00800/00886v.jpg

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...i,lamb,hec,krb

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cp...0/3g01830v.jpg

[Southern Cal]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

[QUOTE=Andrew Kasmar;149936]Hi,

While not exactly what you are looking for, here is a interesting quote from the book The Civil War Infantryman by Gregoy A. Coco (page 75).

To prevent fouling of the bore when consuming large amounts of cartridges in combat, a group of the 37th Mississippians found a clever solution. PVT Washington B. Crumpton explained how they began using Yankee cartridges that were "two calibes" smaller than their weapons: "We abndoned the slow method of drawing the rammer to load. We tore open the cartridge placed it in the muzzel, stamped the breech butt on the ground; the weight of the bullet carried the cartridge home, so we only had to cap and fire. It was almost like a repeating rifle"

[QUOTE=Andrew Kasmar;

Soldiers are nothing if not practical. However,

I wouldn't load a live round with a bullet like that nowadays in case the "weight of the bullet" didn't carry "the cartridge home" and left it somewhere inside the middle of the barrel. Very bad "ju-ju" could result from ignition gases building up behind a short started bullet:

[url]http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bulge/bulge.html[/url]

[marlin teat]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

Hallo!


I guess I do need to look at those battlefields a little harder as I have missed the ramrods sticking up in the air out of the ground for all these years where they were left during those battles.

Curt

I agree with Curt. I've been hunting since the early 60's, both as a relic-hunter and on controlled digs as part archaelogical surveys. Sites include Pickett's Mill, Chickamauga, Dallas-New Hope, Alatoona Pass, and many, many more. I have found more than a few rammers but never, repeat, never in anything resembling a line. Furthermore, I have never met anyone who did.

That being said, there are a lot of things that happened that we do not have archaelogical evidence of. I would just like to see the evidence.

I would think that from a practical perspective, it would be very unlikely that a trained soldier would not return his rammer unless he was in a semi-permanent defensive position. But this is pure conjecture and opinion and has no weight.

[KPavia]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

This is from Andrew Kasmar's signature-

“Simply a slaughter. It was really sickening to see those brave fellows struggling up that valley. Our infantry did not return their rammers as usual, after loading, but stuck them in the ground and snatched them up when wanted, to save time. No troops could stand such a concentrated fire long”
1st Lt. Joseph Boyce, of Co. D, 1st/4th Missouri, CSA.

I bolded the part of the text.
I just thought that it was funny that he's had this in his signature but nobody never brought it out. Doesn't anyone read those anymore?:D

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

I actually got the quote from this thread. It is a very interesting one quote.

[KPavia]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

Ha!
I guess its obvious that I DON'T READ everything then.
My mistake. I had thought that I had read through all the posts here.

[Bill]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

In the category of "For What it's worth". That famous photo of the Stone Wall at Fredericksburg, taken during the Chancellorsville Campaign, clearly shows a bayonet stuck in the ground where the rear rank of the Confederate line would likely have been. I can't see much reason to stick your bayonet in the ground unless you were using it for a ramrod rest.

[RN_PAC]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

These kinds of threads are always a treat as a lurker because you get to see people scrambing for documentation and photos about something so pedestrian that the individuals at the time would scarcely consider them worthy or writing about or imaging. Usually I just stay out and watch, but I was too tempted not to pitch in a little.

My impression is this: it probably did not happen routinely, but almost certainly did happen to soldiers or formations in a defensive posture when in extremis. It is, frankly, common sense. Sure, there is a calculated risk of rendering the weapon temporarily crippled for want of a rammer if lost, but when weighed against the potential difference that a higher rate of fire might bring over the course of a few-minute crecendo in action that would as often as not be an acceptable risk...to me, anyway.

Sure, soldiers who are rigidly well trained might not really do that commonly...but, as a rule, Civil War soldiers were not well trained. I mean (to steal a line from Indiana Jones III) "goose shtepping morons" or automaton-well-trained.

For example, if you were at a "firefight" event that allowed or encouraged ramming, and you were in a defensive posture and temprarily hard pressed, and particularly if you were not in any kind of rigid formation (say, if you were in a skirmish line, in one rank/extended intervals behind works, or in just an open order mess), would you really think it that odd or out of place if one of your fellows did that for awhile? I believe it would look perfectly natural. May not be the safest thing in the world since a pebble or something could concieveably stick to the threaded end of the rod and become ballistically viable in short order, but you get the idea.

[Busterbuttonboy]

Re: rammers thrown in ground and not returned during firing

Toms post gets two thumbs up from me! It was just great. We must use our historical lenses (ie those we have honed with research and field craft after years of interpretation) and deuce what practice and methods would be employed when lacking specific documentation.

PS-
Great Article. Aint it the truth.

http://www.nps.gov/shil/historyculture/upload/ARPA.pdf