Ordering arms while on sentry duty

[Silas]

While digging around manuals I ran across something I had not seen before. This relates to how sentries handle their weapons while on duty. The key phrase is in bold :

638. Sentinels must take the greatest care not to be surprised. They must keep themselves on the alert observing every thing that takes place within sight and hearing and will habitually walk their posts briskly to and fro. They will carry their arms at support, or on either shoulder, but will never quit them, or bring them to an order. In wet weather if there be no sentry box they will secure arms.

This is from the VMI regulations, p. 107 (1854)

I have seen text about carrying arms at support, on either shoulder, never quitting them and securing them in wet weather. I had not seen the specific admonition about ordering arms. Even Gilham's manual lacks this admonition. (See para. 749.)

Since I'm posting info about sentries, here's a link to my free booklet entitled, Guards, Pickets, Camps and Marches (2009). The text from Gilham's manual is reproduced verbatim in para. 3 of my booklet.

[rebinnj]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

Thanks for finding that. In one of the Time-Life Civil War Book (I don't have it in front of me) it has a painting of a soldier on sentry duty with his weapon at order arms and resting his arm upon it, and the caption mentions about "getting into trouble because his weapon was touching the ground while on sentry duty." But I could never find out where in any of the drill manuals or other books stating that regulation.

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

But Silas that is a VMI regulation.

Have you found anywhere in the real military manuals an admonition about ordering arms?

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

On page 33 od The 1865 Customs of Service for Non-commissioned Officers and Soldiers, Kautz quotes the 1861 Army Regulation on the subject verbatim...

415. Sentinels must keep themselves on the alert, observing every thing that takes place within sight and hearing of their post. They will carry their arms habitually at support, or on either shoulder, but will never quit them. In wet weather, if there be no sentry-box, they will secure arms.

The paragraph is the same (although a different number) in the 1857 Army Regulations.

Granted I am reading into it... but the Army Regulation does not explicitly allow a Sentinel to Order Arms and it states that the proper methods for a Sentinel to carry their arms is at the support or on either shoulder.

So by not specifically authorizing Order Arms in the regulation, it implies that it is not authorized. Which is how I do instruct new men in their duties as a Sentinel.

The VMI regulations are for a school so something that NCO's would normally hand down to new soldiers needs to be spelled for the young gentlemen.

So there are my two cents... I think Silas has found the one period reference where it explicitly prohibts a Sentinel from placing his weapon on the ground. Although it has been taught that way to thousands.

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

But Silas that is a VMI regulation.

Have you found anywhere in the real military manuals an admonition about ordering arms?

Bob, I'm not scion of that school in the Valley... but you might want to watch your back after saying that anything published by VMI isn't a 'real' military manual.

Just keeping it a little light...

[orngblsm]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

...if it be wished to give the men rest, the command will be:

Parade-REST.

At the command rest, turn the piece on the heel of the butt, the barrel to the left, the muzzle in front of the centre of the body; seize it at the same time with the left hand just above, and with the right at the upper band; carry the right foot six inches to the rear, the left knee slightly bent.

Pg. 226 Casey's School of the Battalion, MANUAL FOR RELIEVING SENTINELS.

Seems to me that if an officer can give the men a rest while on guard he can also order them to hold their arms in any means he sees fit. Then again the vagueness of military manuals, in this case especially, does not give the specific circumstances where the men can be put at rest. I.E. is the manual refering to the order being given to the whole relief as they are marching from post to post or to each individual sentinel?

[Silas]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

Pg. 226 Casey's School of the Battalion, MANUAL FOR RELIEVING SENTINELS.

Actually, it's in volume one, not two. Here's the link to that same page you cited, but in volume one for the schools of the soldier and company.

The real problem is context. You eliminated the necessary phrase about when an officer is ordering parade rest :

Being on parade and at order arms, if it be wished to give the men rest, the command will be :
Parade - REST

Guys are not on the line hiding in the shadows or maintaining some visible post. They are in parade. Being a section about relieving sentinels, this is likely applied to the guard mount ceremony.

Seems to me that if an officer can give the men a rest while on guard he can also order them to hold their arms in any means he sees fit.

Other than that little problem that such a practice directly contravenes the regulations, I don't see a problem.

Then again the vagueness of military manuals, in this case especially, does not give the specific circumstances where the men can be put at rest. I.E. is the manual refering to the order being given to the whole relief as they are marching from post to post or to each individual sentinel?

I don't see anything vague about a positive regulation saying that a sentinel cannot order his arms. This little phrase found in the VMI reg's doesn't make it into the subsequent U.S. or C.S. regulations because it is superflous. The regulations mandate positions where the musket does not leave a sentinels hands. It's implied that a sentinel cannot order his arms because that causes him to cease complete control over his weapon. As some people are slower than others, a writer at VMI added language that he thought was sufficiently important. I like the specific command because it provides a clear statement and adds further meaning to the other phrases related to how a sentinel holds his weapon.

The manuals create duties and expectations upon which others rely. Some folks have the view that volunteers disregarded the book learning of the regulars as soon as the volunteers reached the field. I do not share that view. I have read too many accounts where nonprofessionals disregarded the advise of the professionals to the detriment of the men in their commands.

As for an officer commanding that arms be ordered, take a look at para. 742 of Gilham. (It's quoted verbatim in my booklet on guards and is linked in the post which commenced this thread.) You'll find that it is virtually identical to the official regulations because that is the source Gilham used when he created his manual of instruction. This is the ceremony related to the changing of the guard. It's not for the relieving of individual sentinels. That task falls upon corporals and sergeants, not the officers. (See, Gilham at para. 742.)

I saw the regulation from the VMI manual and thought it worth posting. I see too many reenactors performing the duties of guards and sentinels while at rest and with the butt of the weapon on the ground. I know I'll see it when I attend my next event at Fort Stevens, Oregon, in two weeks. I post things like this in hopes that folks will notice and cease performing common reenacting practices.

[orngblsm]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

Thanks for putting me strait. For some reason I have missed paragraph 415 of the US regulations in my past readings

415. Sentinels must keep themselves on the alert, observing every thing that takes place within sight and hearing of their post. They will carry their arms habitually at support, or on either shoulder, but will never quit them. In wet weather if there be no sentry-box, they will secure arms.

[Moose]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

Paul Boulden will surley be along to correct me, but in a conversation with him, he mentioned that VMI was using Scott's until 1864. And even thought Gilham wrote a manual the first publishing wasn't until 1861.

Paul knows this stuff better then I do. But I thought that wrinkle is interesting.

Cheers,

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

My Carthaginian Friend... I'm certain Mr. Boulden will be by shortly to correct us all. - Paul, I'm joking!

But in his abscence I have to point out you are talking apples and oranges. The VMI Regulations tell you how to perform as a Sentinel, that is irrespective of which Drill Manual you are using (Scott's or Gilham's).

The US Army Regulations identify how to perform as a Sentinel, while there were separate Drill Manuals for the differnet classes of weapons that may be used (i.e. Scott's, Hardee's and later Casey's)

My apologies for the modern parallel but to illustrate the point, the U.S. Marine Corps still has separate orders for Interior Guard Duty and for Drill and Ceremonies. Separate documents describing the duties of Sentinels and the correct manual of arms and marching.

[Moose]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

Pete,

I hear you. No argument there. But if you go to the link, pg. 107 is located in the appendix of "Extracts from the General Regulations of the U.S. Army." Which includes, at least in the publication cited, Manual of Arms, which is, I beleive Scott's.

So while Manual of Arms and SOP's are indeed different, they are taken form the U.S. Army Regs.

Cheers,

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

But Silas that is a VMI regulation.

Have you found anywhere in the real military manuals an admonition about ordering arms?

Very true, that's a VMI Regulation. But don't be so quick as to imply that the VMI Regulations were not a 'real military manual', it would be true to state that the VMI Regulations were not a Federal Manual, but during the period, they most certainly were as military as you could get.

To educate, that although this Institution was a school...it was also a State Armory which housed a mixture of Federal & Commonwealth of Virginia military Arms and Equipment. Regulations for the Institute had to be Reveiwed/Approved by the Virginia Adjutant General, so yes - these were 'Real Military Regulations', just not Federal.

Also keep in mind that the folks who drafted the Va. Mil. Institute Regulations, were for the most part West Point Men (Col. F.H. Smith, Col. Wm. Gilham...etc.). Therefore these men, were more than likely working from an established 'known' basis. Perhaps they thought it prudent to spell out what the other manuals/orders/regulations of the day seemed to glance over (read between the lines of the other works pointed out - and you'll see that one is instructed 'not to quit' ones arm, which means one does not bring it to the order...the VMI regulators though specifically mention this, perhaps to clarify and identify where there would be no confusion as to how to stand guard as a sentinel).

Paul Boulden will surley be along to correct me, but in a conversation with him, he mentioned that VMI was using Scott's until 1864. And even thought Gilham wrote a manual the first publishing wasn't until 1861.

Sorry, my Carthegenian comrade...'Gen. Scott's manual' was used until the Fall (November, I believe) of 1863...it was at this time that they school was no longer able to obtain any of Scott's manual, and so they switch to Hardees Manual.

Now, this isn't to say that the cadets were unfamiliar with Gilham's Manual or Hardee's Manuals...just to clarify what they were using and when. Officially the VMI Cadets as a Corps did not use Col. Gilham's manual - makes one wonder what they were teaching in the Spring of 1861...sigh

Furthermore, the first printing of Col. Gilham's manual was in 1860 (Philadelphia Printing).

Also, as Mr. Silas has been kind enough to point out for us time and time again...Col. Gilham's Manual sought to be a one-stop shop for EVERYTHING, to include the Manual of Arms for Heavy & Light Infantry (Musket vs. Rifle), basic artillery (condensed), basic cavalry (condensed), manufacture of ammunition, Marching/Riding, Equipment Descriptions, Forms, Forms, Forms, Music, oh...and guard duty.

Keep in mind this manual was billed as the Manual for VOLUNTEERS AND MILITIA, so it was meant to educate everyone on the basic function of a real-army...but I digress, the topic of discussion was on the Va. Mil. Institute regulations...these were 'Real Military Regulations - Approved by the Adjutant General of Virginia'.

Questions??

Paul B.

[hiplainsyank]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

Fascinating discussion on drill manuals, but what evidence is there from period images, sketches and photos?

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

Fascinating discussion on drill manuals, but what evidence is there from period images, sketches and photos?

Now that will be the hard spot. As the 'assumption' would be that if a photo was shown of a 'sentinel/guard' at the order, then he wouldn't be standing guard. I believe you'll find that there may be Special Orders written for guards who are operating in confined spaces or in-doors. But those orders would be as stated 'Special Orders' and wouldn't apply to the common soldiers, but would be specific to the duty at a given time/place being performed. (thinking of presidential guard operating in-doors here...anyone know how Lincoln's Guard at Ford's Theatre was supposed to be standing when he neglected his duty??).

Paul B.

[Moose]

Re: Ordering arms while on sentry duty

Like I said, Paul would be along to correct me.

Cheers,