Marking Gear

[Charles Heath]

Re: Marking Gear

Spence,

Thanks. Your post answered a couple of questions I have had for quite some time. Having used the large stencil cutters in an installation maintenence shop many years ago, I can't help but wonder if some of those old machines, albeit with the very small and rarely used dies, couldn't be used to cut brass stencils instead of the familiar oil board.

[Pvt Peck]

Re: Marking Gear

Spence:

I would be VERY interested in seeing the "workings" of the stencil making kit you have. Would you be willing to contact me "off forum" via e-mail and possibly share some photos of this device with me? Sounds like you found a real treasure, and the gear in your friends collection that was marked with this kit is amazing, what a coincidence!

Ted Parrott

[DJCasey]

Re: Marking Gear

I have seen on a prvately owned cartrigde box a very crudely scratched name on the inside, under the flap on the rough side. The owner would have done it very quickly and with little care as to how it looked. Maybe done with a jack knife, nail or other sharp implement. It looks like how a kid would scratch his name into cafeteria table. I always wondered if this was a last minute, heading into battle identification.

[Bummer]

Re: Marking Gear

Spence,

Thanks. Your post answered a couple of questions I have had for quite some time. Having used the large stencil cutters in an installation maintenence shop many years ago, I can't help but wonder if some of those old machines, albeit with the very small and rarely used dies, couldn't be used to cut brass stencils instead of the familiar oil board.

Charles (and others),
The way it's done is that there is a block of Lignum Vitae (sp?) wood--very dense--that is smooth on top with a bar that clamps a piece of sheet brass (or nickle silver) down on it. Then the maker puts one letter at a time along the bar and taps with a hammer. The wood is so dense that with the sharp die it actually cuts the sheet metal. There are also some small metal assorted wavy forms that can be clamped in there too as the bar--or the wavy form--acts as a guide to keep the letters in line, or in the chosen graceful curve. Some of the patterns advertized with the kit show waving Union flags with names along the stripes, Union shields, and I have even experimented and made some nifty corps badge designs with names and regts. inside. The letters being quite small, only about 1/4 inch high.
When the sheet is cut to the customer's name etc. (flag, corps badge design, whatever) then the sheet is removed (which leaves the cut out letters etc. embedded in the wood surface), turned over and filed flat and clean. The appropriate sized frame is next added (and priced accordingly), placed on the back and the sheet metal cut with snips, the excess folded over the frame and then there is this small chisel looking thing that you apply pressure all over which indents the area around the letters (see Jim Mayos photos above) so the ink doesn't run when applying the markings.
There was included a tiny bottle of ink a tin handled brush and a small direction sheet all of which there are dozens and dozens within the kit chest along with rolls of sheet metal and piles of assorted frames.
The whole kit fits neatly into a traveling case about the size of a shoe box with a handle on top--doesn't take up much room in the sutler's wagon at all compared to the return on his money.
And yes, I have been tempted to turn out some really nice ones, but have thus far resisted. One reason is the old letters stay embedded in the wood block and it's getting quite full. I can see Mich and NY regts. in there--hate to mess that up. Of course they're all overlapped so I have been unable to really make out what units and names but you can see parts of several.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Marking Gear

Spence: Using the account book, what regiments was this sutler serving? I have been interested in learning how those guys operated. You also answered the question I have had for a while...How much did those kits cost. That is a really unique item you have there.

[Bummer]

Re: Marking Gear

Jim,
Unfortunately the account book only gives names or even initials--not outfits, and sometimes not even that. Just mostly a running money account. I have not looked at the thing in several years, it just sits on a shelf, so I'd have to dig it out and see if I can make sense of it. I know some of the regts. show up in the wood block, but even they are jumbled (as the slide holder thing gets moved from line to line).
The reason I try to forget I own such a thing is that every time I do get it out I get really fired up to make some stencils with it, and I really hate to use it. I used to be bugged silly with friends wanting me to make one for them. Right now I don't even have a new one for myself--which I should do but keep putting off.
If ever we were to meet, I would be most glad to let you look through it as I do know it is a pretty rare item...wonder what the 'Horse Soldier' would charge for such a thing?--Although I could make more money selling some 'rare' stencils.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Marking Gear

This one went for $405 on e-bay last week. If just this kit went for this much, the kit that made the kit would be very pricey indeed.

[Bummer]

Re: Marking Gear

Jim,
Gasp!!
That photo looks exactly like what I could make dozens and dozens of--the little brush is identical too. The only thing that I don't have is the little tin box--'my' product came wrapped in a printed direction sheet--and with a tiny glass bottle (for extra cost of course).
The oval frame like in the picture is one of the smaller ones; you could get a rectangular one a little bigger too, and my kit has patterns to make fancier ones like wavy lines etc. and even small graphics out of commas etc. like waving flags and the sort of stuff people make on keyboards today. The kit has the pattern sheets that show how to design them. I sometimes think I ought to make a killer one with my name scrolling around a corpsbadge--nobody would believe such a thing!

[wrfabus]

Re: Marking Gear (Info for Jim Mayo)

Jim,

There was a Samuel Weeks listed in the 23rd PA, Company C, as a corporal - mustered in as a private on 02 Aug. 1862, wounded at Malvern Hill 01 July 1862, promoted to corporal 10 Sept. 1863, mustered out with company 08 Sept. 1864. Unfortunately, no middle initial listed. This information came from "Birney's Zouaves Civil War, Life of the 23rd Pennsylvania Volunteers", by William J. Wray.

I also checked the Pennsylvania State Archives Veterans Card File, and though Samuel Weeks is listed with the above info, there is also no middle initial given. That information can be found here: http://www.digitalarchives.state.pa....s&ArchiveID=17

Hope This Helps

[Jimmayo]

Re: Marking Gear

Thanks for the info. The soldiers and sailors web page lists 8 or 9 Samuel Weeks and I think one was in a Pa. outfit. I think that is as close as I can get to identifying this gentleman.

[tomarch]

Re: Marking Gear

One thing about marking gear that has had me puzzled. Way back when Dom DalBello was a cpl. (a LONG time ago back with Co."C" 4th U.S.) he did some research and found a system used by the U.S.Army for marking accoutrements, haversack, canteen and knapsack. the system consisted of marking in white paint the persons # in the company, the company letter andthe regimental# kind of like this:

28 (My old number in Co."C")
C
4

Has anyone else heard of this? Frankly I've never used the system since I've never seen an original piece of equipment painted this way.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Marking Gear

I have seen it (I think). I will try to find an example. Here is a similar marking with a little more info. Not from a stencil but regiment, company and number is there.

[Tom Ezell]

Re: Marking Gear

As possibly part of Dom's research, the old Hardcracker Handbook had a short article toward the back showing the typical location and format of unit markings on various accoutrements...

[tomarch]

Re: Marking Gear

Tom, that's probably where it came from. Was that article based on anything in Army regs? Or is this another "re-enactorism".I honestly cannot recall any original equipment (except for the longarm photo my Jim M.) that shows that kind of marking

[Tom Ezell]

Re: Marking Gear

Tom:

A little of both, maybe... The original author cites to the U.S. Army regulations, as well as to "original items."