Correct NCO chevron shape

[zouave114]

I was wondering what the correct shape should be for NCO chevrons, namely the curved as opposed to the straight. Is it a time period or just an incorrect thing?

[yeoman]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

Sir, here are links to charts of Union and Confederate enlisted NCO rank.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/images/unionenlistedrank.jpg

http://www.civilwarhome.com/images/csaenlistedrank.jpg

Here is another link for service and NCO grade insignia.

http://howardlanham.tripod.com/link19.htm

If I understand your question, you are not talking about the difference in the ties over the chevrons of quartermaster and master sergeants. This is a link to a photo of a group of NCOs which looks to have both. Then again, it may be my eye or the lay of his sleeve.

http://howardlanham.tripod.com/link131.htm

I hope this and helps.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

I believe you will find photographic evidence that both were used. I do not know if there is a study breaking down the variant usage by theater or time period, but it would be interesting to see.

[GrumpyDave]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

I'll bet you'll find there's as may varients as there are arsenals and contractors.

[lhsnj]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

Here are a couple more photo examples:
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93rd PA Co D image.

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Another group of NCO's.

[Michael Comer]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

I've looked at a few things before posting but by no means was this an exhaustive search. My impression and thought is that the standard straight chevron was more numerous. They seem to show up in photographs more and in the 1864 Schuyler, Hartley and Graham catalog they list the uniform regulations and then only have the straight chevrons illustrated.

While both were used I think the straight ones were more common. It seems the elliptical ones have gained a lot of ground in the hobby and may border on being a reenactorism since they are so common in the hobby.

[MLovejoy]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

From the photos I have, I've seen a multitude of different shapes, spacings, and designs of NCO sgt; the most notable differences coming from sergeants. One thing I think many of us forget is that many NCOs made their stripes in the field, and by looking at some of these pictures you can tell that some of these are "field made" stripes. I'm attaching some of the more different things I have downloaded photos of. The photo of 20th NY 1st Sgt I attached looks like it's just one piece of cloth cut in the shape of a 1st sgt stripe and sewn right on the jacket.

[rebelfirefighter07]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

Whats a correct material to make "field made" chevrons? I saw an original set yesterday and they seemed a good bit thinner than the tape that you see alot of reenactors wear. I'm mainly looking for Confederate materials.

[DougCooper]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

I'll bet you'll find there's as may varients as there are arsenals and contractors.

Bump this great comment!

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

I think we can agree that there are variations to the chevrons themselves based on what history has shown us. Not to detract from this thread but it needs to be said that...As Reenactors we need to pay attention ..to the direction in which we sew the chevrons on our garments as witnessed at recent events (EBUFU even!!!) with people using modern uniform guidelines.....My .02 cents


MODERN = WRONG



FEDERAL ENLISTED RANK CIVIL WAR TIME PERIOD = RIGHT



Jus Sayin!

[AndrewGrim]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

Based on the prisoner of war images from the late war in Virginia, there were not very many NCO chevrons.

[mdougher]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

...As Reenactors we need to pay attention ..to the direction in which we sew the chevrons on our garments


MODERN = WRONG



FEDERAL ENLISTED RANK CIVIL WAR TIME PERIOD = RIGHT



Jus Sayin!

This is going to depend on who your portraying. For the infantry and calvary your absolutly right. The Marine Corps (north and south) however was wearing them with the point facing up throughout the war.

Mike Dougherty

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

This is going to depend on who your portraying. For the infantry and calvary your absolutly right. The Marine Corps (north and south) however was wearing them with the point facing up throughout the war.

Mike Dougherty

Mike,

Thanks for the clarification..I was speaking of the Army only as that was what was being discussed.
Here is some more info below on the US Army NCO insignias


METHOD OF WEARING

Chevrons were sewn on the sleeves of uniforms with the point down from approximately 1820 to 1903. They were worn with the points both up and down between 1903 and 1905 after the first reversal from "down" to "up" was authorized on 1 May 1903 in Army Regulation No. 622. This confusion period, from 1903 to 1905, was the result of the color change in the chevrons provided for in the regulation which also directed a standard color for each branch, corps, or organization and replaced the gold-colored chevrons. Because of the number of gold insignia available, troops were permitted to wear the old-type chevron until the supply became exhausted.

To assure uniformity in both color and position of the new colored chevrons, War Department Circular 61, dated 30 November 1905, stated that the points of the chevrons would be worn points upward. It also provided for the following colors as had been directed in Army Regulation No. 622, dated 1 May 1903. The colors were: Artillery-scarlet; Cavalry-yellow; Engineers-scarlet piped with orange; Hospital Corps-maroon piped with white; Infantry-light blue; Ordnance-black piped with scarlet; Post QM Sergeant-buff; Signal Corps-orange piped with white; West Point Band-light blue; and West Point Detachment-buff.

As early as 1820, chevrons were worn with the point down, although there was not an official direction of this to appear in regulations until 1821 when chevrons were authorized for both officers and enlisted men. Circular No. 65, 1821, stated that" "Chevrons will designate rank (both of officers through the rank of captain and enlisted men) as follows: Captains, one on each arm, above the elbow, and subalterns, on each arm below the elbow. They will be of gold or silver lace, half an inch wide, conforming in colour to the button of their regiment or corps. The angles of the chevron to point upwards.

Adjutants will be designated by an arc of gold or silver fringe, (according to the colour of their trimmings), connecting the extreme points formed by the ends of the chevron. Sergeant Majors and Quartermaster Sergeants will wear one chevron of worsted braid on each arm, above the elbow. Sergeants and senior musicians, one on each arm, below the elbow, and corporals, one on the right arm, above the elbow. They will conform in colour to the button of their regiment or corps." Before this time, an officer’s rank was indicated by epaulettes worn on the shoulder. This regulation also indicated the first use of the arc as part of the chevron.

Chevrons continued to be worn points downward during the 1800’s. AGO Order No. 10, dated 9 February 1833, stated "Chevrons will be worn with the point toward the cuff of the sleeves." Article 1577 of the revised United States Regulations of 1861 stated "The rank of non-commissioned Officers will be marked by chevrons upon both sleeves of the uniform coat and overcoat, above the elbow, of silk worsted binding on-half inch wide, to be the same color as the edgings of the coat, point down."

1861. During the Civil War, many new designations came into being. The following is a complete list of designations: sergeant majors; quartermaster sergeants; commissary sergeants; leaders of bands; principal or chief musicians; chief buglers; medical cadets; ordnance sergeants; hospital stewards; regimental hospital stewards; battalion sergeant majors; battalion quartermaster sergeants; battalion hospital stewards; battalion saddler sergeants; battalion commissary sergeants; battalion veterinary sergeants; first sergeants; company quartermaster sergeants; sergeants; corporals; buglers; musicians; farriers and blacksmiths; artificers; saddlers; master wagoners; wagoners; privates; enlisted men of ordnance.

1866. The following titles disappeared: leaders of bands; battalion hospital stewards; chief buglers; medical cadets; battalion commissary sergeants; battalion saddler sergeants, battalion veterinary sergeants; buglers; and enlisted men of ordnance. The following new titles were established: saddler sergeants; trumpeters, chief trumpeters; privates (first class); and privates (second class).



above cited from http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/ The Insitute of Heraldry

[yeoman]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

Sir, not to take away from your first post..., but could this corporal to the left in this image be a marine?

Did the Marine Corps have its own chevron design to distinguish the branch of service apart from the Army?

At the first battle of Manassas/Bull Run, July 21, 1861, a battalion of Marines were under the command of Colonel Andrew Porter, 1st Brigade, 2nd Division.

This from, http://www.civilwararchive.com/RESEA...bullusaorg.htm

Thanks for the consideration.

[usmcskipper]

Re: Correct NCO chevron shape

Without knowing where that photo is from and only being able to blow it up so far due to the resolution of the one posted, I would say that they are not Marines. United States Marines wore a frock coat with yellow chevrons for undress as per the 1859 regulations. The yellow chevrons would not show up as bright in a photo as the chevrons on the corporal in this particular photo. Also, Marines in the 1859 dress wore a kepi with a bugle insignia on the front and the people in the photo do not appear to have that on their headgear.

Chris