Carrying gear

[Hank Trent]

Re: Carrying gear

Second..... Why not just leave the gum blanket and shelter half at home? Better yet, team up with a close pard, have one carry a blanket, and the other carry the groundcloth/ gum blanket?

I must be missing something or misunderstanding something. I think you're suggesting to carry only a blanket, and no gum blanket or shelter half at all. Or two people carry only one blanket and one gum blanket between them.

Serious question: what do you do when it rains? Yeah, I know: get wet. But lying on the bare wet ground under a totally soaked blanket seems just a little too wet, and adding one gum blanket for two people wouldn't improve it much.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Carrying gear

E.g. here?

Yes -- but also see post #23 above.

[Possum Stew]

Re: Carrying gear

I must be missing something or misunderstanding something. I think you're suggesting to carry only a blanket, and no gum blanket or shelter half at all. Or two people carry only one blanket and one gum blanket between them.

Serious question: what do you do when it rains? Yeah, I know: get wet. But lying on the bare wet ground under a totally soaked blanket seems just a little too wet, and adding one gum blanket for two people wouldn't improve it much.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Because they did it:

"but they soon threw aside their impedimenta, and each settled down to his one blanket and such clothes as he actually wore. This march across the Carolinas was a very hard one. Our feet soon became blistered and sore, and many of us had no shoes, but trudged along in the cold and mud barefooted as best we could. As I have already said, this was a cold winter, and it seemed to us that it rained and froze constantly. Not a particle of shelter did we have day or night. We would march all day, often in more or less rain, and at nightfall halt, and bivouac in the bushes, with every particle of food or clothing saturated. Within a few minutes after a halt, even under a steady rain, fires would be burning and quickly extend through the bivouac. If a civilian should attempt to kindle a fire with soaked wood under a steady rain, he would find his patience sorely tried, but the soldiers seemed to have no trouble."
LIFE IN THE CONFEDERATE ARMY BEING PERSONAL EXPERIENCES OF A PRIVATE SOLDIER IN THE CONFEDERATE ARMY BY ARTHUR P. FORD
AND SOME EXPERIENCES AND SKETCHES OF SOUTHERN LIFE BY MARION JOHNSTONE FORD NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON
THE NEALE PUBLISHING COMPANY 1905

[Hank Trent]

Re: Carrying gear

Because they did it:

"but they soon threw aside their impedimenta, and each settled down to his one blanket and such clothes as he actually wore. This march across the Carolinas was a very hard one. Our feet soon became blistered and sore, and many of us had no shoes, but trudged along in the cold and mud barefooted as best we could.

Okay, I get you on the Reb vs. Fed thing, and I agree that it's situational-specific as far as what's most accurate, at Backwaters and at any event.

But as an aside, have you actually done that? I mean gone to a cold-weather event and marched in the rain for a couple days, with only a wool blanket and no shelter from the rain? Personally, I'd feel at too much risk of hypothermia, so I'm curious how one could do it from a real-life health perspective. In hot weather is another matter, of course.

For example, I'm thinking how Into the Piney Woods ended early in the cold, rain and mud, even with gum blankets and tents. Doing without those would only have made it shorter, and I'm not sure a hyper-realistic event is still actually an event after everyone leaves. :) So if doing without gum blankets/shelter halves is accurate for the situation, what would be a way to get the majority of participants through an event like that?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Gallo de Cielo]

Re: Carrying gear

Hank,

TJ did Banks' Grand Retreat without shoes. We had cold, we had mud, we had heat, so he's walked the walk. Since we tackled the lower elevations first (the ones you stomped through towards the end of IPW) and it had just rained, we forded a fair number of deep creeks and bayous. The night on the eve of St. Patrick's Day (the "charcoal forest" for those at BGR) was particularly cold. All told, we pulled guys out every day with varying issues but barefooted TJ was not one of them.

TJ has also surfed the campfire at Prairie Grove but that was another occasion.

Regards,

[Possum Stew]

Re: Carrying gear

Okay, I get you on the Reb vs. Fed thing, and I agree that it's situational-specific as far as what's most accurate, at Backwaters and at any event.

But as an aside, have you actually done that? I mean gone to a cold-weather event and marched in the rain for a couple days, with only a wool blanket and no shelter from the rain? Personally, I'd feel at too much risk of hypothermia, so I'm curious how one could do it from a real-life health perspective. In hot weather is another matter, of course.

For example, I'm thinking how Into the Piney Woods ended early in the cold, rain and mud, even with gum blankets and tents. Doing without those would only have made it shorter, and I'm not sure a hyper-realistic event is still actually an event after everyone leaves. :) So if doing without gum blankets/shelter halves is accurate for the situation, what would be a way to get the majority of participants through an event like that?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Well my friend, we're fixin' to do it this comming weekend. I'll tell you how it goes.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Carrying gear

Hank,

TJ did Banks' Grand Retreat without shoes. We had cold, we had mud, we had heat, so he's walked the walk. Since we tackled the lower elevations first (the ones you stomped through towards the end of IPW) and it had just rained, we forded a fair number of deep creeks and bayous. The night on the eve of St. Patrick's Day (the "charcoal forest" for those at BGR) was particularly cold. All told, we pulled guys out every day with varying issues but barefooted TJ was not one of them.

TJ has also surfed the campfire at Prairie Grove but that was another occasion.

Okay, but I'm mostly interested in how others could do that, if reenactors in this thread are suggesting that more participants in the hobby should do it.

I've hardened my feet for walking barefoot in some years, just by gradually walking more barefoot, but I've never noticed any increase at all in my ability to withstand cold barefoot, especially wet cold ground. In modern life, I can wear crocks with no socks in the winter (sounds like a Dr. Seuss poem), but contact with the damp ground sucks all the heat out and makes my feet numb in about 15 minutes, below about 45 degrees.

So it seems to me that just walking barefoot more in the cold wouldn't give me any progress, just like I could practice forever and never run a four minute mile, while other people could by following the same training. My tentative conclusion is that beyond a certain point, it's genetic luck, and there's nothing to do about that.

If there's a trick or training method that works for everyone, so that almost anyone could do it, then it would be worth sharing.

Same for keeping warm with a wet blanket and no shelter. If reenactors are suggesting that everyone should do that when it's historically appropriate, what's the solution so events aren't cancelled by people dropping out, like ITPW?

I can offer my tips from ITPW, like spooning at night and getting moving immediately when you get up to increase your circulation and warm up from exercise. But sometimes that isn't possible--if you're in the army and aren't told to start marching, you can't march, for example, and I've never found that exercising in place works. Or else it clearly isn't enough to solve the problem of event cancellation, even with tents and gum blankets, because physical and psychological variation is too wide. I don't know what the solution is.

In other words, if reenactors are advocating that others should do something, the only way I can see to make it happen is to tell how to do it, in a way that will work for most people, if there is such a thing. I'm not sure there is.

Though this website isn't for the beginning reenactor, I don't think this is information that's too basic to discuss, if even c/p/h events are cancelled or marches shortened due to problems.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Carrying gear

Hank, I think you make a good point about reenactors -- it's no use to talk about doing more with less without discussing how.

But I think it's probably also worth noting that in the real civil war -- as opposed to memoirs written long afterward -- throwing away issued gear and marching without shoes seems more the exception than the rule, and even without most soldiers jettisoning equipment, casualty rates from disease and exposure reached levels that significantly degraded the armies' strength.

It's well to remember that soldiers on both sides had to pay for what they threw away, and although for the southern soldier this meant less and less in the last two years of the war, the practice was never encouraged. No commanding general who wanted his army to move quickly and relatively intact would let his men go barefoot if he could at all help it. Lee blamed a shortage of shoes for much of the straggling in the Maryland campaign -- apparently the toughened feet of young farmboys in his army just weren't tough enough for real campaigns of 15-20 miles a day, day after day, over stony pikes. And packs or blanket rolls weren't just luxuries for the troops, but the means by which they carried rations when they were issued for more than two or three days, and ammunition over 40 rounds.

My hat's off to anyone who can campaign a weekend or a week today with minimal camp and garrison equipage. But it was seldom the norm then, and it's no basis for an event of any size today.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Carrying gear

To quote another on this forum, "other's mileage may vary."



Here is a solution: If you can't do it, don't come. Just like a reenactor with heart problems shouldn't attend strenuous campaign events; someone that has a hard time with the cold, probably shouldn't go to cold weather events.

"But I think it's probably also worth noting that in the real civil war -- as opposed to memoirs written long afterward -- throwing away issued gear and marching without shoes seems more the exception than the rule,"

I think making broad statements about the war, when we are talking about a specific campaign, should be more an exception than the rule.

The initial question asked how to carry specific items recommended by organizers for a specific event. I made the assumption that the organizers of the event, who recommended that the gentleman carry a blanket, gum blanket, and shelter half, have done their research for this specific campaign. You recommended an alternative load and defended it by saying "they did it," referring to one of many long-after-the-fact memoirs by a soldier in the other army. I think at that point I had some basis for pointing out that "they" did not always do it, and doing it had certain consequences at the time, including loss of pay and health. To suggest that people not participate if they can't "campaign" in your fashion, regardless of its appropriateness to the event, doesn't serve anyone, not those interested in "authentic campaigning" and not the people trying to get folks to attend their events.

If you're interested in the specifics of supply and equipment in Sherman's march through the Carolinas, you might want to take a glance at the Quatermaster General's report for 1865. I think the reports from Sherman's quartermasters start around page 555: http://books.google.com/books?id=PhN...age&q=&f=false

[Possum Stew]

Re: Carrying gear

So why were my posts deleted?

[Hank Trent]

Re: Carrying gear

I missed reading the deleted posts, but I'm guessing that I was right with this part of my answer?

My tentative conclusion is that beyond a certain point, it's genetic luck, and there's nothing to do about that....

In other words, if reenactors are advocating that others should do something, the only way I can see to make it happen is to tell how to do it, in a way that will work for most people, if there is such a thing. I'm not sure there is.

It's a shame, because I'd like to learn, but then, I'd also like to run in the Olympics and do other things that, genetically, even though I'm in perfectly good health, I could never do.

There's a tendency for people who got the genetic good luck to lord it over others: I can do it, so what's your problem? Believe me, I was not happy when all the civilians that I met kept turning me down on the last day when I asked them to finish the ITPW route.

But I've been on both the giving and the receiving end of that, so I try to be understanding when something that seems easy for me seems hard or impossible for others, remembering the many times that I've been in the reverse position.

But geez, if somebody can tell me how to get more used to the cold, especially barefoot, I'd love to learn how to do it.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[BGYANK]

Re: Carrying gear

For what it's worth I'll give my answer,

TJ's company has requested tighter standards than the event guidelines. We all knew that going in and still signed on to be a part of this company. Mr. Trent, would you like to attend an event in which 20 others agreed to go by your standards? I'm almost certain you have had this opportunity before and I'm glad you did. The how to of your question you should know, when surrounded by a like minded group of people you can do more than you think. The thought of letting the group down drives you on. To be fair, you can't open this up to the whole community, only those who will accept the challenge. Having read of your previous events and the standard you hold yourself to, you should be able to see what TJ is speaking of.

Ernie W Steff
Independent Volunteers

[Hank Trent]

Re: Carrying gear

Good discussion!

I'm almost certain you have had this opportunity before and I'm glad you did. The how to of your question you should know, when surrounded by a like minded group of people you can do more than you think. The thought of letting the group down drives you on.

No, actually, I don't get it at all. Peer pressure has almost zero influence on me. At Into the Piney Woods, I finished the route even though everyone else around me was expecting me to drop out like they did, so it took no encouragement from others to make me go on, and their discouragement had no effect.

On the other hand, if I expect something will injure my health more than I want, I'll simply refuse to do it and won't think twice.

So honestly, I don't know how to keep my feet from going numb from the cold when I'm barefoot in 40 degrees, and no amount of peer pressure would make me choose to continue like that to the point of frostbite.

As far as keeping warm overall when wet, obviously the peer pressure at Into the Piney Woods didn't make those with hypothermia choose to continue, and I'm not sure that would be a good thing if it did. Down in the bottom, where we were past the creeks so flooding wasn't an issue, what could have made the other civilians finish? Better training? Luck? Genetics? Even more peer pressure? I don't know. I was stumped. My best conclusion is that it was partly preparation but mostly luck, and I think exerting more peer pressure would just become bullying.

To go back to the other analogy, training and peer pressure still can't make everyone run a four minute mile, though there's certainly pressure to do so at any race.

To be fair, you can't open this up to the whole community, only those who will accept the challenge.

I agree with that, however I think there must either be a "how to" that can be taught, or (more likely) a predetermined limit to different people's ability. Saying that the solution is peer pressure or mentally accepting the challenge, seems as useless as coaching someone in a race, "Just run faster, like they're doing."

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Carrying gear

Well this thread is officially off the rails.

Those of you braggards not reading what Hank Trent is writing, then belittling him to prove how tough you are for choosing to go with less need to step back from the keyboard for awhile. None of you have attempted to answer his question beyond saying "ur pards git yah threw".

If you had ever spoken with Hank and particpated in an event with him you wouldn't be saying he isn't dedicated nor that he isn't tough.

[JimKindred]

Re: Carrying gear

Well this thread is officially off the rails.

You are absolutely correct.