Cartridge Box Question

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

Hallo!

I did not bother to check to the SEARCH feature to see if the old discussions on bow to weigh down a cartridge box are still available...

But what I was referring to was where lads melted lead and the poured it into the bottom of the tins where when it crystalized and cooled formed a solid weight that easily went back into the box with no muss or fuss.

In rough math, a full 40 round .58 box's worth of cartridge bullet would be roughly 40 times a nominal 510 grains or a total of 20,400. With 7,000 grains in a pound that is not quite three (2.914) pounds of lead missing from a reenactor's box.
Of course, it goes down with each round fired or dropped.

Before I get asked... ;) :)

With a nominal 60 grain charge of FF, that is, not weighing the papers, 40 times 60 grains or another 2400 grains or roughly a third a pound (.34).

Curt

[Reb13thva]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

Bob
The easiest way I have found is to use lead weights I molded to fit into the bottom of the two tins. The only problem with this is, it makes it extremely difficult to get the arsenal packs into the bottom tins if they are rolled to the proper size. I personally have to struggle to get them in their for quite a while, as well as getting them out can be a challenge as well. But all in all the experience of carrying the weight of 40 rounds of ammo is worth it.
James

[ACo.]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

........... what I was referring to was where lads melted lead and the poured it into the bottom of the tins where when it crystalized and cooled formed a solid weight that easily went back into the box with no muss or fuss.

Curt

Curt, that might be one way to handle it if someone feels it is necessary for the experience of carrying the "real" weight of a cartridge box, but we need to consider that lead melt at about 630 degrees, the soft 50/50 solder used on the tin will melt at a lower temperature due to the tin in the solder - tin melts at 450 degrees and the solder will flow at 400 degrees. How best to keep the tins from de-soldering when pouring the lead into them to create the weight? Can anyone suggest a heat sink that will keep this from happening? Please remember that water is out....

[robert-m]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

I didn't put the lead in my tins. i made a block out of it and put it in the bottom of my box. It rides freely in the box. I then put my tins on top of that it worked well for me.

[Blair]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

Keep in mind the cartridges you are using in an event are blanks.
They should be the same size and shaped of blanks used in the time period. Providing you wish to be "historically correct"!
Original blank cartridges will be about one inch to an inch and 1/8th shorter than a fully loaded cartridge, (no lead projectile) depending on the caliber and type of arm being used.
This allows quite a bit of room in the bottom of each section of the cartridge box tins to add thin sheet lead layers to bring the weight of the box up to the proper weight of an original fully load cartridge box. Lead roof flashing works very well for this and can be cut to size, folded and bent by hand to fit tightly.
The shorter blank round will ride as high in the box as if they had real projectiles in them, with the sheet lead added.
Just an idea for those who wish to experience the "real" weight of a historically accurately loaded cartridge box.

[john duffer]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

"Keep in mind the cartridges you are using in an event are blanks.
They should be the same size and shaped of blanks used in the time period."

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your logic here Mr. Taylor. Though folks are (hopefully) shooting blanks, they are pretending to shoot the real thing. If they intend to represent period blanks then the need for lead weight to be added is pretty much a non-issue.

[Blair]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

John,

Agreed.

Keep in mind here, the key word here is "pretending" to shoot the real thing.
How else would you suggest they carry around the weight of a fully loaded 40 round cartridge box with cotton ball "pretend" bullet?
You can either carry the weight, or pretend to shoot cotton ball bullets.
I'm not making a judgment call here, it is up to what the individual wants for his interpretation of authenticity.
I am only offering them some options, if they choose to take them.

[Henry_Rifle]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

Keep in mind the cartridges you are using in an event are blanks.
They should be the same size and shaped of blanks used in the time period. Providing you wish to be "historically correct"!

We're reenacting an actual event (hopefully - although that is often open to debate). What is the relevance "period blanks?" And, why should the rounds we carry be "the same size and shape of period blanks?" The real question is whether or not one wants to carry a 4.5# cartridge box. If you do, or if you don't, authentic rounds, not "period blanks" should be the order of the day.

[Guy Gane III]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

In regards to acquiring additional rounds at the front lines....

I have read (and I will look for the book, to quote directly) that when the Iron Brigade was engaged on the 1st day of July, '63, the ammunition started to run low and they were in need of more rounds... (I believe they were issued 60 rounds per man - 40 in the Carty Box and 20 in 2 bundles, in their pockets/knapsacks)

So as they needed more, the ammunition wagon came charging up to the front and I believe a sergeant was throwing the ammunition boxes out of the back of the wagon...

I am under the assumption that 2nd-4th Sgt.s were ordered to the rear to collect the boxes, get them open and the rounds distributed to men of their respective companies...

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

Hallo!

I did not experiecne any tin solder melting, nor do I recall any lads reporting they did.

During times of high lead prices, and worse yet lead shortages, we were using what we knicknamed "X-ray" lead which was lead salvaged from remodelled or demolished medical facilities and is sheet lead used to line the walls of x-ray rooms.
And at times, we had cheap lead from salvage yards that was old lead sewer plumbing (some of the century or older stuff had horse hair packed into the joints).

The x-ray sheet lead came in flat sheets that were folded like newspapers. They were simply unfolded and like cutting fabric, and one can cut squares and rectangles from it. (Or hammer it to the shaped required.)

One can also take a wood chisel and a block of wood, and "carve" a wooden mold the shape one needs for casting the molten lead.

I am not sure how well adding lead UNDER the box tins would/could work, as it raises the height of the tin beyond the upper edge of the box?

And last, it is about one's Mental Picture. CW soldiers did not go into combat with Period blank rounds instead of "live" rounds. And it is about one's chosen Mental Picture that while the box can be rigged to feel like a Period 40 round box that is full we are still faced with the fact that the box is ALWAYS full even when low or empty which is not ALWAYS an historically accurate emulation/simulation, and

-an "authentic looking" simulation of a Period cartridge made with a cotton ball instead of a Minie ball does not "feel" the same as a Period cartridge either in the "feel" or how it was actually loaded by the soldier.

But, IMHO, these things are "more better" than stapled penny wrappers.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[JustRob]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

The article An Irishman dies at Antietam - An Archaeology of the Individual by Stephen R. Potter and Douglas W. Owsley documents the graves of four Irish Brigade soldiers discovered at the Roulette Farm in 1998.

There were a number of interesting findings:

Only one soldier was buried with his cap box and bayonet scabbard. No belt plate was found.

No soldiers were buried with their cartridge boxes.

Two were buried with their knapsacks. (Despite records that the packs were dropped before battle)

Two soldiers had unfired rounds in their knapsacks (one had twenty rounds, the other had nine) Possibly why they didn't drop their packs.

One had four rounds in his trouser pocket. The other had six rounds somewhere on his person.

One carried a pocketknife in his breast pocket.


For those who haven't seen it before, this is what documented historical evidence looks like.

[Edmund{Road Apple}]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

You bring up the safety part of the tins but Im pretty sure that 40 rounds heck even 10 rounds would easily blow through that if struck, there thin tin (kinda rhymed)unless during the war they would have been thicker. Plus with them being tin they would fragment-ate possibly doing more damage see in it would become shrapnel.

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

You bring up the safety part of the tins but Im pretty sure that 40 rounds heck even 10 rounds would easily blow through that if struck, there thin tin (kinda rhymed)unless during the war they would have been thicker. Plus with them being tin they would fragment-ate possibly doing more damage see in it would become shrapnel.

Ed, black powder burns like a match head. It works as a propellent only when packed in a barrel. The safety concern isn't that the rounds are going to explode like a grenade, but that they will burn like a bundle of matches creating fire and heat. The compartments in the tins prevent the spreading of the fire. Hopefully limiting the fire to 10 or less rounds vice the entire cartidge box.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

Hallo!

Correct, unconfined, uncompressed blackpowder burns very quicky rather than explodes. IT would be intersting as to what confinement a box of rounds would had. But as shared, the cartridge box was designed/constructed not to "confine."

Might would be interesting if a lad had a box of Samuel Gardiner's "rifled shell bullet" cartridges

:)

Curt

[John E. Tobey]

Re: Cartridge Box Question

I think I posted this information a few years ago, but it may be worth offering again. About twenty years ago I was involved in an experiment to see what (if any) effects the tins would have if a cartridge box was to catch fire with a full load of 40 rounds. We made four cartridge boxes, filled them with live rounds and lit them up with cannon fuse. Two of the boxes had tins in them, two had no tins. For each sample, we also wanted to see what effect the actual latching of the box would have on the result, so one was latched, the other unlatched. The boxes were all based on a US M61 for .58.

Our feelings before the experiment were that the tins had no bearing on safety, but we got a surprise. The boxes with no tins split along the long seam in the back that joins the flap to the box body, allowing the majority of the fire to pass towards what would have been the wearer's body. With tins, the majority of the force was directed away from the body: either splitting out the top front of the box or just blowing out the top. The tins did not fragment, but the solder joints did part.

One alarming implication with all this: when we performed this test, we put the tins in properly, ie, with the opening in the bottom compartment facing the front of the box. If the tins were put in backwards, I would suspect that the result would be more or less like a primitive shaped charge if the rounds in the bottom compartment blew, directing more of the force towards the back of the box, towards the wearer's body. From the safety standpoint, it may be better to have no tins than to put the tins in backwards.

Safety issues aside, Wes Small at the Horse Soldier told me that he has seen many original CS boxes that showed evidence of being used without tins. How can one tell this? Because boxes used for any length of time without the tins will get characteristic "bulges" at the bottom. Why is this more true of CS boxes than US ones? Maybe there was a shortage of tins for the CS boxes? Maybe the inspectors were more prone to make the boys in blue replace them if they lost or discarded them? I don't know.

John Tobey