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Living History as Performance Art

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  • #91
    Re: Living History as Performance Art

    To cut to the chase a bit here....

    We derive a false sense of historicity from our faith in documentation. In other words, if we can come up with a piece of paper that says the 15th Ontario Guards wore polka-dot trousers during May of 1863, it gives us a comfort that we've reached some level of authenticity. Unfortunately, it often turns out that what was boilerplate history in one decade is then overturned in the next. While on first reading this might sound like a justification for "anything goes," it's most definitely not. My meaning instead is that documentation is only part of the process for understanding history, and shouldn't be a crutch or an absolution from doing further research.

    Worse, too, is the tendency for "documented" standards to become mindlessly repeated in the hobby. My tired example of "no vests in the ranks" is the easiest to cite: someone, somewhere, decided that the rank & file should not be permitted to wear vests at events when in actuality the enlisted men of the period not only liked vests for the comfort and sartorial splendor, but purchased them or asked their kin to send them vests from home. Yet for YEARS EBUFU events had regs stipulating "no vests in the ranks." ?????

    While I applaud your suggestion to do more research about topics like slavery and politics of the period, I doubt that soldiers in the ranks talked much about either. Do you sit around with your buds discussing Obama or Palin? Well, maybe you do, Talk Radio has made a light industry of political demagoguery, so that's probably a bad example. More likely if the men debated anything, it would be religion. This is the period of the Third Great Awakening, and religious revival was especially passionate among Southern troops (who had good reason as the war went on to think they would meet their Creator). One of the better first person LHs I've met, Rich Hill, once said we had things backwards these days: we talk of sex, but never mention religion. During the Victorian era, it was the opposite, and folks cared very deeply about various Protestant sects, whereas today most churches are happy when the homeless walk in.

    The challenge for doing firper is that much of everyday life from back then has been lost. People didn't write down the commonplace details of their lives, either because they were simply living, or because no one thought to do so. A hundred years from now, will people know what a Post-It is, why we care about "dead zones," or why people were "voted off the island"?

    For me, the trick is to learn as much as I can about the period, then the locale. If I'm portraying a soldier from Ohio, what town did he come from? But more to the point is to acquire as much common knowledge of the period. Do you know anything about horses? Even a city man would know a little bit, since horsepower was quite literal. Learn about the names for commonplace items-- matches were "Lucifers," for example. And as with things material, PEC: plain, everyday, common. Don't look for the unusual, keep it simple and low-key.
    Bill Cross
    The Rowdy Pards

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Living History as Performance Art

      Originally posted by OldKingCrow View Post
      I don't. That is the problem. Applying your previous carte blanch license to fabricate plausible details how would I ? If there is buy in, as with everything else to keep it research based, there would be no issue.
      Well, I dunno, how do you decide what clothes to wear? If there's carte blanche to wear anything because you don't know exactly what someone wore, how do you decide?

      Same thing. It's research-based, but it's not an exact science. Some things can be researched to the point that you know for sure. Other things are just one's best guess.

      Sure there is. I can speak at length on:

      Slavery, abolition, Lincoln's election

      Period farming methods, varieties, problems, prices / profits

      Comes from not fabricating a charachter but inserting yourself in that situation. in real time, properly armed with sound historical knowledge.
      But unless you yourself truly have those opinions, with the same fervor and sincerity as someone in 186x with no modern perspective, then you're fabricating a character who's not like you. And anybody who says they actually feel exactly like a typical person did in the 1860's on every topic is either insane or lying.

      You would also talk differently about those things (I hope) if you were at a reenactment wearing the clothing of a southern planter, a Union soldier or a northern businessman. Again, you're fabricating a character--a typical southern planter, etc. etc.

      Besides, when I hear people just being people, their conversations are rarely so generic. They talk about their wife and kids, funny things that happened to them, what they're doing next month. Reenactors complain about hokey over-dramatic acting being unrealistic and unbelievable, but I think generic impersonal topics are equally unrealistic, if that's all that reenactors are expected to reenact. Though obviously, there are times where a long, serious dialog on Obama's policies (in the modern world) or abolition (in period) are realistic too--just not all the time.

      If you get assigned Joe Blow from the census at an event, to tie into your assertions above, you dont know what he said, did , felt on any given day.
      Exactly. But if you refuse to portray Joe Blow because you don't know enough about him, you're only moving the problem back one step if you claim to be Chris Rideout or Hank Trent, born circa 1840 or 1820 instead. If you're a soldier, look on the real muster roll of the regiment: your name's not there. Look in the census: you're not there either. You're still making up history, in a different way, by inserting yourself into the past. Why is this so hard for reenactors to admit?

      In my opinion, there are positives and negatives of doing it either way. They're just different, but neither is definitely, positively more accurate than the other, because it is historical fiction or a docu-drama. It has to be, because it can't be exactly a real re-creation of the past no matter how much we try. Heck, I couldn't even recreate yesterday, only a fictional partially-remembered version of it.

      This reminds me of a discussion where the topic was something like good repro broadcloth. I said, there's really no modern equivalent. The other fellow said, then repros shouldn't be made of substandard cloth, just do without. I said, what's more accurate, recreating the 1860s as a world where no one wears broadcloth or as a world where the broadcloth isn't quite right?

      Neither is accurate, and neither is really more accurate than the other on a linear scale, either. They're just different ways of being inaccurate.

      Hank Trent
      hanktrent@gmail.com
      Hank Trent

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Living History as Performance Art

        Originally posted by Bill Cross View Post
        To cut to the chase a bit here....

        We derive a false sense of historicity from our faith in documentation. In other words, if we can come up with a piece of paper that says the 15th Ontario Guards wore polka-dot trousers during May of 1863, it gives us a comfort that we've reached some level of authenticity. Unfortunately, it often turns out that what was boilerplate history in one decade is then overturned in the next. While on first reading this might sound like a justification for "anything goes," it's most definitely not. My meaning instead is that documentation is only part of the process for understanding history, and shouldn't be a crutch or an absolution from doing further research.
        Bill you know that is not the demostrated philosphy of this end of the pool ? Research has evolved and expanded as it has become revealed.

        Originally posted by Bill Cross View Post
        Worse, too, is the tendency for "documented" standards to become mindlessly repeated in the hobby. My tired example of "no vests in the ranks" is the easiest to cite: someone, somewhere, decided that the rank & file should not be permitted to wear vests at events when in actuality the enlisted men of the period not only liked vests for the comfort and sartorial splendor, but purchased them or asked their kin to send them vests from home. Yet for YEARS EBUFU events had regs stipulating "no vests in the ranks." ?????
        So you think that is a result of inferior historianship ? Could it be perhaps the desire to convey a P/E/C interpretation of the common ACW soldier instead of ranks filled with individualist dandies feeding thier egos by one upping his file mate with kewl duds ?

        Originally posted by Bill Cross View Post
        While I applaud your suggestion to do more research about topics like slavery and politics of the period, I doubt that soldiers in the ranks talked much about either. Do you sit around with your buds discussing Obama or Palin? Well, maybe you do, Talk Radio has made a light industry of political demagoguery, so that's probably a bad example.
        Know anything about political demagoguery in the period ? Its no new phenom by any stretch despite what Olbermann / Maddow might instruct you to believe.

        Originally posted by Bill Cross View Post
        More likely if the men debated anything, it would be religion. This is the period of the Third Great Awakening, and religious revival was especially passionate among Southern troops (who had good reason as the war went on to think they would meet their Creator).
        I have not run across too many religous debates in camps, on campaigns or among soldiers....is there one instance in particular you base this on ?

        Originally posted by Bill Cross View Post
        The challenge for doing firper is that much of everyday life from back then has been lost. People didn't write down the commonplace details of their lives, either because they were simply living, or because no one thought to do so.
        Well this community and strides in the hobby have shown there is plenty and more available everyday for those willing to invest due dillegence. If one accepts your assertion as accurate...is the answer where lacking info to then fabricate these details ?


        Originally posted by Bill Cross View Post
        For me, the trick is to learn as much as I can about the period, then the locale. If I'm portraying a soldier from Ohio, what town did he come from? But more to the point is to acquire as much common knowledge of the period. Do you know anything about horses? Even a city man would know a little bit, since horsepower was quite literal. Learn about the names for commonplace items-- matches were "Lucifers," for example. And as with things material, PEC: plain, everyday, common. Don't look for the unusual, keep it simple and low-key.
        Good night man, this is what I have been saying and by doing so you will NEVER have to FAKE or MAKE anything up.

        Chris Rideout
        Tampa, Florida
        Last edited by OldKingCrow; 07-15-2010, 09:52 AM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Living History as Performance Art

          Originally posted by Bill Cross View Post
          While I applaud your suggestion to do more research about topics like slavery and politics of the period, I doubt that soldiers in the ranks talked much about either.
          Hi Bill, I have to respectfully disagree with you that soldiers probably didn't talk about politics. From what I've read politics would have been a very important topic, especially in 1863, in Ohio. I have read all of the 52 (minus a few missing issues) weeks worth of the 1863 Gallipolis Journal, and the editor is constantly talking about how some families have purchased issues of the Journal to be sent to their boys in the ranks. That right there tells me that the boys read it when they had the chance and were aware of the political occurances. The report following the '63 election gave the results of the soldiers' votes, and 99.999% of the Gallia County boys voted the Union party, and against the traitorous Clement Vallandigham. I think a lot of it depends upon time, place and circumstances. But it all goes back to research to see what would be tyipcal.


          matches were "Lucifers"
          Well, um... it's more like matches were matches, and Lucifers were matches. It's like when today when we say "make a Xerox" do we literally mean make a Xerox or will a Canon copy be okay? A Xerox is a copy, but a copy is a copy.

          Linda.
          Linda Trent
          [email]linda_trent@att.net[/email]

          “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble.
          It’s what you know that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Living History as Performance Art

            Originally posted by OldKingCrow View Post
            Originally posted by Bill Cross
            For me, the trick is to learn as much as I can about the period, then the locale. If I'm portraying a soldier from Ohio, what town did he come from? But more to the point is to acquire as much common knowledge of the period. Do you know anything about horses? Even a city man would know a little bit, since horsepower was quite literal. Learn about the names for commonplace items-- matches were "Lucifers," for example. And as with things material, PEC: plain, everyday, common. Don't look for the unusual, keep it simple and low-key.
            Good night man, this is what I have been saying and by doing so you will NEVER have to FAKE or MAKE anything up.
            Huh? Of course you will. You'll either have to "make up" that someone named Hank Trent lived in Gallipolis Ohio in 1863, or you'll have to "make up" that Joe Blow from the 1860 Gallipolis census wore brown trousers in the summer of 1863 and talked about his dislike of slavery.

            Hank Trent
            hanktrent@gmail.com
            Hank Trent

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Living History as Performance Art

              Originally posted by Hank Trent View Post
              Huh? Of course you will. You'll either have to "make up" that someone named Hank Trent lived in Gallipolis Ohio in 1863, or you'll have to "make up" that Joe Blow from the 1860 Gallipolis census wore brown trousers in the summer of 1863 and talked about his dislike of slavery.

              Hank Trent
              hanktrent@gmail.com
              At some level one does have to create and assign character traits where most times, just a name, perhaps familial structure and property holdings are known. But assigning known, supported period traits is where the fabrication should end for most intents and purposes as it often can go from traits: pro / anto slavery for example, into full blown mini-sagas.

              Do you see the difference in applying well researched P / E / C discipline to interp Joe Blow and robe him in known trouser patterns, colors, materials and construction techniques ?

              I am best served and most convincing drawing on my personal beliefs and moral code into a charachter rather than fabricate it.

              I can do Joe and speak about my beliefs on slavery and not make things up.

              The difference is when you get the "Joe" that begins to wind a tale about his slaves back on the farm and little Liza Jane going to the Underground Railroad and thus begins the sprial away from documented history and into drama.

              Im not saying either is wrong just another way of looking at things.

              Chris Rideout
              Tampa, Florida
              Last edited by OldKingCrow; 07-15-2010, 12:32 PM.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Living History as Performance Art

                Originally posted by OldKingCrow View Post
                I am best served and most convincing drawing on my personal beliefs and moral code into a charachter rather than fabricate it. I can do Joe and speak about my beliefs on slavery and not make things up.
                I guess this is where I get confused. If I were to draw my personal beliefs and moral code into a character, than when I'm in Georgia this fall I'd be an abolitionist. That ain't happening without putting a lot of melodrama into the event. So I have to study the attitude of the 19th century dirt poor southerner and then do my best at portraying their attitude toward slaves. Will I get it right for the census name that I was given? Maybe, maybe not, but that goes with being given a real person. The best I can do is research out the common feelings of the time and place and go with it.

                Linda.
                Linda Trent
                [email]linda_trent@att.net[/email]

                “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble.
                It’s what you know that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Living History as Performance Art

                  Originally posted by LindaTrent View Post
                  I guess this is where I get confused. If I were to draw my personal beliefs and moral code into a character, than when I'm in Georgia this fall I'd be an abolitionist. That ain't happening without putting a lot of melodrama into the event. So I have to study the attitude of the 19th century dirt poor southerner and then do my best at portraying their attitude toward slaves. Will I get it right for the census name that I was given? Maybe, maybe not, but that goes with being given a real person. The best I can do is research out the common feelings of the time and place and go with it.
                  Linda.
                  That is a great point and one I expected.

                  I hope you find that upcoming Georgia experience this fall as life changing as both of the times I have been privileged to get the opportunity to do my thing, with now long gone and used to be pards there.

                  Plenty of Southrons were or had some degree of abolitionist leanings. As the war progressed abolition, as means of ceasing hostilities and ending suffering garnered more and more favor. Please refer to Jim Butler's outstanding synopsis of an aspect of Southern life directly on point to the "Westville" (Lumpkin, Stewart Co. Georgia) area which precipitated this movement. I am not allowed to post history references here but I would be happy to PM you specific references, matter of fact I will load you plumb up.

                  How do I, as a modern day Jeffersonian, States Righter portray a Federal US Soldier set out to destroy my heritage with my personal compass as guide ? I say let em seceed. They want States Rights ? Let em go !!! I got whuppped / mixed up into this in the early ferver and I want out. If I get that chance I'm gone you will see. Old Abe can SMA. 'Fore I skedaddle I would though like to bag me one Secesh just to say I did to my grandkids and of course at the tavern back home.


                  CJ Rideout
                  Tampa, FLorida

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Living History as Performance Art

                    Originally posted by OldKingCrow View Post
                    At some level one does have to create and assign charachter traits where most times, just a name, perhaps familial structure and property holdings are known. But assigning known, supported period traits is where the fabrication should end for most intents and purposes as it often can go from traits: pro / anto slavery for example, into full blown mini-sagas.

                    Do you see the difference in applying well researched P / E / C discipline to interp Joe Blow and robe him in known trouser patterns, colors, materials and construction techniques ?

                    I am best served and most convincing drawing on my personal beliefs and moral code into a charachter rather than fabricate it.

                    I can do Joe and speak about my beliefs on slavery and not make things up.

                    The difference is when you get the "Joe" that begins to wind a tale about his slaves back on the farm and little Liza Jane going to the Underground Railroad and thus begins the sprial away from documented history and into drama.

                    Im not saying either is wrong just another way of looking at things.
                    Here's the problem, though: Can you document that people in the 19th century never talked about personal anecdotes, and that personal experiences didn't shape who they were?

                    I can pretty well document they they intertwined their opinions with anecdotes, just as surely as they wore pants (or dresses). Letters, novels, memoirs, etc. are full of casual talk about everyday situations as well as personal opinions.

                    So it's the no-good-repro-broadcloth problem again. We can either recreate an inaccurate world where no one talks about personal anecdotes except for a few rare documented ones, or we can recreate a world where people include typical but not-specifically-documented anecdotes. You've chosen one way, which is fine, but which I'd personally find stilted and unrealistic. I couldn't suspend disbelief at a reenactment like that. You don't like the inaccuracy of making up even carefully-researched but still fictional anecdotes, and couldn't suspend disbelief at a reenactment like that. Different choices.

                    However, I think there's a limit at which we'd both have problems with suspending disbelief, even in our own choices. War on the James, that Linda loved, was too close to melodrama for me, to rank it as my favorite. Good, but pushing it a little too far. But I can imagine that events where everyone only spoke about known political and social issues, ignoring even when somebody spilled the coffee because there's no documentation that anyone spilled the coffee that day, would also be pushing it too far for you. It's still a matter of subjective, and trying to do what works.

                    Hank Trent
                    hanktrent@gmail.com
                    Hank Trent

                    Comment


                    • Re: Living History as Performance Art

                      Originally posted by OldKingCrow View Post
                      Plenty of Southrons were or had some degree of abolitionist leanings.
                      And a lot more people in 2010 have abolitionist leanings. The demographics are not the same 150 years later. What do you do, draw straws to see who gets to portray themselves and who has to act?

                      I really don't want to go to a re-creation of a southern town where the slave-owners are modern-day white supremists and everybody else is scrambling for documentation to justify portraying people who are okay with blacks having the vote and marrying whites.

                      It absolutely goes against my belief in the integrity of historical portrayals, to suggest that people should skew the demographics of the past, just so they don't have to "act."

                      Hank Trent
                      hanktrent@gmail.com
                      Hank Trent

                      Comment


                      • Re: Living History as Performance Art

                        Originally posted by OldKingCrow View Post
                        Plenty of Southrons were or had some degree of abolitionist leanings.
                        True, but how did Mrs. Lewis feel, that's the question. I have to just guess, and I'd rather guess she was a loyal Southerner than force my modern Union do or die attitude on her. Somehow I just don't see Mrs. Lewis with outspoken Yankee beliefs, having been born and raised in North Carolina and marrying in Georgia. I agree that as the war progressed attitudes changed, but still I don't think they have changed that much.

                        Then to top it all, I don't think that she would have had my religious beliefs either. While the LDS church was in existance, it wasn't located in Georgia. So I'm going to have to do as I normally do and chose another religious denomination. So there are always things that we are forced to guess on or study and portray.

                        Linda.
                        Linda Trent
                        [email]linda_trent@att.net[/email]

                        “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble.
                        It’s what you know that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Living History as Performance Art

                          " because there's no documentation that anyone spilled the coffee that day "

                          HA ! So you admit it ! :)
                          John Duffer
                          Independence Mess
                          MOOCOWS
                          WIG
                          "There lies $1000 and a cow."

                          Comment


                          • Re: Living History as Performance Art

                            Originally posted by Hank Trent View Post
                            ......, ignoring even when somebody spilled the coffee because there's no documentation that anyone spilled the coffee that day, would also be pushing it too far for you.
                            Hank Trent
                            hanktrent@gmail.com
                            I am going to back off now. I have posted without being insulting and it had to go there.

                            This is an insult to me personally (which big deal I know) but also to the research based movement(which sucks to hear from you and is a big deal).

                            You know damn well, that I nor anyone who has been true to the philosphy / ideals of this community do not promote or suggest this type or level of the picking of nits as means to obstruct or hinder "our thing". This is the sort of crap some Streamer mouth breather spews to "mean ole authentics who wanna research everything Bah!"

                            Chris Rideout
                            Tampa, Florida

                            Comment


                            • Re: Living History as Performance Art

                              Originally posted by OldKingCrow View Post
                              I am going to back off now. I have posted without being insulting and it had to go there.

                              This is an insult to me personally (which big deal I know) but also to the research based movement(which sucks to hear from you and is a big deal).

                              You know damn well, that I nor anyone who has been true to the philosphy / ideals of this community do not promote or suggest this type or level of the picking of nits as means to obstruct or hinder "our thing". This is the sort of crap some Streamer mouth breather spews to "mean ole authentics who wanna research everything Bah!"

                              Chris Rideout
                              Tampa, Florida
                              That's a personal insult? Geez, I thought I was trying to be agreeable by commenting that both of our philosophies can be taken too far. In the same paragraph, I mentioned the unbelievable melodrama that "my side" causes. Guess I ought to be offended that I claimed people like me promote bad acting and go off in a huff myself. :confused_

                              Hank Trent
                              hanktrent@gmail.com
                              Hank Trent

                              Comment


                              • Re: Living History as Performance Art

                                Not a personal insult in that I am pouty faced (well a little from lip collagen injections but that is another hobby).

                                But for farks sake man you buy in and drink the research at every hazard kool aid and Yoda comes along and smashes your muscadines.

                                Chris Rideout
                                Tampa, Florida
                                Last edited by OldKingCrow; 07-15-2010, 12:51 PM.

                                Comment

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