Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

[Ken Myers]

It seems that woolrich cannot produce jeans wool at this time. Please tell me of another source for the material. I know Ben Tart and Childs sells it, but there must be another source out there.
Thank you,
Ken Myers

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Ken:

http://www.wwandcompany.com/index.ph...ies/cs-fabrics

We have been retailing Family Heirloom Weavers jeancloth for several years.

[Travelin Cornfed]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Ken-

Dan's materials and customer service are both first rate. You'll not be sorry if you order from him.

[Hanzbluejacket]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

I have a hard time telling from your site, Dan. Do you sell your sky blue on tan jean by the yard, or is it only available for garment construction.

Terry Billings

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Terry,

From the top of the CS Fabrics page:

The following materials are all $23/yard or $19/yard for orders of 10 yards or more (plus shipping.) These are all fabrics from Family Heirloom Weavers and limited amounts are available. As such, samples will not be offered for these materials. They are standard materials from which you can choose to make your garment at no extra charge.

[Ken Myers]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Where are you in Michigan. My friend is up there right now. Thank you for the information.
Ken Myers

[SamuelCathey]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Don't want to sound too snotty, but folks buying more jeans from people like Childs instead of Woolrich can only help the authenticity movement.

SamCathey

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Sam,

What exactly about County Cloth's jean helps the authenticity movement where Woolrich's hurts it? Woolrich's jean I find to be more consistent with homespun or so-called "deep south" jean cloth whereas County Cloth produces a "blanket finished" high grade jean. Apples and oranges. One is appropriate for certain reproductions where the other is useful for other things. I don't see that their products are in any way mutually exclusive.

[SamuelCathey]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

I love the clean lines of the vast majority of uniforms I see in museums and photographs. Fine sewing and pressing, linings fitting beautifully, collars well set, even easements etc. To me, the jean cloth by and large looks finished and tightly woven. Cloth, pattern, and construction blend wonderfully to create those jackets we all spend hours staring at. Even items labelled "crude" still often strike me as being quite well made out of fabric produced by experienced hands. A favorite photo of mine shows an old black man after the war posing in battered shirt and shoes with his banjo. Not a wealthy man, his pants nevertheless appear to be made of decent, finished jean that looks a lot like today's high-end jean cloth.
In the modern reenacting world, large numbers in the progressive camp do not exhibit this clean, streamlined, tailored look. Certainly this is partly due to pattern and construction issues. The fabric is not at fault if a person's shoulder seams sit in different spots. However, some of the jeans on the market today appear bulky, stiff, and unfinished looking, and contribute substantially to the reason many repro uniforms do not make even a young skinny kid look like a Civil War soldier. I am not suggesting that all photos present a severely tailored look. Yet I believe much compelling evidence exists supporting the idea of well made garments out of well made cloth (even poor man's jeans). Crudely woven or sewn by 19th century standards differs greatly from crudely woven or sewn in the 21st century.
Anyway, way more than I intended to write as I am not much of a forum guy. I respect that you work with a variety of fabrics and think about this stuff a lot, so we'll just have to leave it at respectfully disagreeing. Cheers!
Sam Cathey

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Sam,

I think the problem lies that you are speaking in generalities and lumping *all* CS clothing into one large batch. In my experience I have been fortunate to examine eight original CS enlisted jackets and coats first hand and have also been the lucky recipient of detailed photos of over two dozen other CS enlisted jackets from research others have done. The quality of materials used are subject to the constraints of time, place, and need. The Louisiana frock coat in the Troiani collection is made from a superb quality green on natural cassimere, well finished, and in excellent condition. This reflects what was available in New Orleans during the first few months of the war. Were I to reproduce this coat I would contact County Cloth for some of their cassimere, as that is what is today closest in quality and feel. Not ten feet from where the frock coat is stored is another enlistedman's jacket most likely produced at the Shreveport Depot sometime during the last year of the war. The quality of the jean used to make this jacket is very poor, yet durable, with large wool yarns. The closest material produced today to the quality seen in this jacket is actually the terribly smelly jean cloth produced in India that has been imported intermittently. To reproduce the "Shreveport" jacket from a finer grade material would certainly make it a second rate reproduction.

The point I am making is that to state that Woolrich's products are inferior to those of County Cloth is fallacious. The different materials produced by County Cloth, Ben Tart, FHW, Woolrich, Mickey Black, and other smaller producers are simply different tools in the tool box. You need a certain wrench to replace the EGR valve in your car, and if you try to use another wrench or a pair of pliers you might get the job done, but more likely than not things will not look as good as if you'd used the right tool for the job. For one project a FHW jean may be just the thing, for another a CC cassimere, or a Tart sumac jean. Just as the Fries mill wasn't producing the same material as the Eagle mill or the Huntsville Penitentiary, today vendors produce different materials. And as long as the fiber content is correct and the weaving is done right, no one is superior to the other, they're just different.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.


Best,

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

I couple of years ago, I made a jacket using Woolrich jean. The resulting jacket turned out well and it is durable and will last for years. However, the extra efforts I had to take to make sure that the fabric would not unravel in the process of making the coat were a pain in the neck! I could lose 1/2" of seam allowance just looking at the stuff. I never fully cut out a pattern piece until it was ready to be sewn, and even then, I only cut out the portion of the piece to be included in the seam. I had to add extra reenforcement to the pockets so they wouldn't tear out.

For this reason alone, I wouldn't recommend it for a novice.

[SamuelCathey]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

I understand what you are saying and I can clarify. I also have held jackets in my hands, been to Troiani's several times, wandered the G-burg catacombs in my park service days, seen the mill production reports in the National Archives etc. etc. Yes, not all 19th century fabrics looked alike and they varied in weight and yarn size. At the risk of sounding ridiculous I can say that all those fabrics were lucky in that they were both different and "super hardcore authentic". My point is that we do not have this luxury today. It would be fantastic to have a variety of jeans that are equally authentically produced, but I believe that not all jeans are created equal. I have an awareness of the amount of sanity stressing diligence it takes to reproduce a bolt of jeans or a good blanket and don't believe that Woolrich has engaged in this process. The most obvious indication being that their Civil War blankets are 15% nylon. (I haven't put a match to a jean swatch to see if there is any polyester in it, so I can't comment about that.) Again linking this to the larger picture of stagnation in the authentic world, reenactors need to deal with the question, "Why do so many jackets out there look like bulky sweaters and frock coats look like bath robes?" It seems to me that the culprits are certain fabrics and certain patterns.
In any case, the beauty of the discipline of history is that the truth is elusive and there is room for all interpretations (except maybe the one about aliens making killer kersey). The benefit of a conversation like this is that it might encourage folks to make some museum road trips and press their noses against some glass!

keep on sewin'
Sam Cathey

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Does Woolrich make natural / vegetable dyed products ?

Simple enough to me authenticity wise.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Sam,

The Woolrich jean is indeed a mix of 100% wool and 100% cotton. And their line of 100% wool kersey is, in fact, 100% wool. Woven on the same types of looms that County Cloth, Ben Tart, and FHW use. Again I fail to see how this makes them more or less authentic. Woolrich has been custom weaving for some of the most authentic vendors in the hobby for over fifteen years, and you would be surprised to see the list of vendors that have been working with them during that time.

I think the biggest surprise you would find is if you performed a content test on County Cloth kersey made in the last five years. After some severe scorching problems on the last piece of $40.50/yard English Army Cloth I received from them, I ran extensive bleach tests and found their kersey to contain a 30% synthetic content that was actually blended into the wool (not a filament in the center of the yarn in the case of Woolrich's classic synthetic blend kersey.) Now if that isn't the world turned upside down I don't know what is! And of course the kersey was illegally advertised as being 100% wool.

I will certainly agree with you on the bulky sweater and bathrobe situation, but I believe that this is 100% a function of poor patterns. Even some that are considered the best available are not correct when compared to the original garment from which it was supposedly based. There is no substitute for examining a garment you wish to produce first hand, and if you take someone else's word for it with a commercially produced pattern, you will most likely find it ultimately is not as authentic as you thought.

CJ, the jeans that Woolrich offered were sheep's gray and brown colored. Undyed and unbleached.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Woolrich out of Jeans Wool

Sam,


I think the biggest surprise you would find is if you performed a content test on County Cloth kersey made in the last five years. After some severe scorching problems on the last piece of $40.50/yard English Army Cloth I received from them, I ran extensive bleach tests and found their kersey to contain a 30% synthetic content that was actually blended into the wool (not a filament in the center of the yarn in the case of Woolrich's classic synthetic blend kersey.) Now if that isn't the world turned upside down I don't know what is! And of course the kersey was illegally advertised as being 100% wool.

Good Lord, Moses, Mary and Charles C. Hoffman's 1917 5-gal dye pot. I have purchased said kersey for to make Charleston provenanced garments.

If that don't make the baby Rob Hodge cry, nuthin' will.

CJ, the jeans that Woolrich offered were sheep's gray and brown colored. Undyed and unbleached.

Which is first rate for the home dye pot - experimentation inclined....if it doesn't shrink or become otherwise unselvedged.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida