Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

[ironbrigade6]

Hello all,
I have been wondering about the numbers of Enfields used at First Manassas. I was also thinking about how many 1861 Springfields that may have appeared there, I would imagen that the number of 61 Springfields would be low as they just came into production. I may be wrong on this assumption, but I just was wondering about how prevalent both of these weapons would have been at this battle.

Thanks,

Jonathan Bachmann
104th Pennsylvania Infantry
Company C
McClellan Rangers

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

While not the exact subject, you may find this thread useful http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...eld+production . Here is a quote from the Federal EOG:"Indirect competition with the Ordnance Department, Massachusetts and New York already had agents in England buying Enfield Rifle Muskets for their soldiers. By mid-June, New York had contracted for 20,000 Enfields and had already received enough to arm one regiment."

[Blair]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

English made arms had to be imported. Some of the older types may have been available pre ACW.
M-1861 Springfield's had to be made in enough quantity (s) to be available before, say 1862.

By First Mananas, few of either would have been available in enough quantities to have been noticeable.
Percussion U. S. manufactured arms, M-1855's, M-1841's, M-1842's in Musket and Rifled forms, along with Flint and Percussion alteration and/or conversions of earlier Model types of U. S. made arms will be prevalent.
Just my opinion, and others may vary greatly on this subject.

[Busterbuttonboy]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

What regiment/battalion/company are you portraying? What do their pre-war, early, manassas returns say they were armed with? These are the questions you should be asking prior to any event.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

Halllo!

As shared, the M1861 RM would have been fairly "rare" at 1st Manassas/Bull Run.

Speaking of the M1861...

On April 19, 1861 I.L. Wright superintendent of of Springfield Armory wrote to Chief of Ordnance H.K. acknowlegdging that the production of the "rifle musket" be "pushed to the utmost capacity of the armory, working the entire day." (It is believed Springfield had held back on M1855 production in anticipation of the 1860 recommendation to eliminate the Maynard primer system.) to up production to 2,000 RM's per month.
His letter also said that should Craig authorize him to do so, he also could make 2500 as easily as 2000 with the elimination of the Maynard system.

On April 20, 1861 George Dwight relieved Wright as superintendent. Colonel Craig was relieved as chief of ordnance on April 23, 1861 and replaced by Col. James Ripley. Ripley acknowledged receiving Wright's letter of April 19 on April 26, and wrote to Dwight the same day authorizing him to drop the Maynard features but save the machinery for future use.

Soooooooo. Some time AFTER Ripley's April 26, 1861 letter arrived Dwight had to have the improved M1855 (AKA M1861) machinery that was different from the M1855 made and installed, (at least installed if not already made and on site) or modified- and the M1855 machinery removed and stored.

If Wright was right, and he could produce 2500 of the new RM's per month, that leaves roughly May and June allowing for a few weeks for the trickle-effect shipments of new M1861's to get from Springfield distributed and issued into the hands of some troops before campaigning in the field in time for Manassas.

IMHO, at best, that would have been a hopeful max of roughly 5,000. IMHO, the actual numbers in the hands of troops at Manassas was much smaller. If for no other reason than if Wright had been right, and ALL of the production at Springfield had been M1861's, at 2,000 a month for the eight months between May and December 1861- that would have been a total of 16,000 on top of January through April production for 1861.

But for 1861, Springfield only reported a total musket (of all kinds) production of 13,803. (102,410 for 1862, 217,784 for 1863, 276,200 for 1864, and 195,341 for 1865.)

All in all, IMHO, there will/may be far more repro M1861's at Manassas 150 than were original M1861's at Manassas in 1861.

;) :)

Curt

[KPavia]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

The M1842 smoothbore from Harper's Ferry would be accurate for an impression representing the 2nd Rhode Island Infantry. A buddy of mine owns an original M1842 that belonged to Cpl. Ezek B. Smith of the 2nd RI who was wounded at 1st Bull Run, captured and died a couple weeks later.

[ironbrigade6]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

Thank you all for the help, I was just curious as to how many wouldve been there. Thank you again.

Jonathan Bachmann
104th Pennsylvania Infantry
Comapany C
McClellan Rangers

[ACo.]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

At Manassas?

(1)British P53 Rifle Muskets? - 0, none had yet been imported.

(2)US M1861 Rifle Muskets - a few, most of them (if not all) in the hands of the Regulars.

(3)US M1855 Rifles and Rifle Muskets - Some in the hands of State Troops but most in the hands of Regulars.

(4)US M1842 Musket - quite a few, in the hands of State Troops on both sides.

(5)US M1841 Rifle, again, quite a few, in the hands of State Troops from both sides.

(6)US M1816 Musket Conversions - a few in the hands of State Troops on both sides, large scale conversion of flint muskets was being carried out by the Federal Government but most states had not converted muskets in their possession.

(7)US Standard Flintlock muskets - common for State Troops for BOTH sides. This would have been the most commonly seen weapon arming troops at 1st Manassas in 1861. Included here would be the weapons in possession of the states in their various arsenals to include weapons given by the Federal Government under the Militia Act of 1808 and weapons contracted for or manufactured by the various States.

Example of weapons issued by the Commonwealth of Virginia as of June 17, 1861:

http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/message/message.html

Virginia was among the wealthiest and best prepared of all of the states and this document shows issue of mostly flint, smoothbored muskets.

[gsusat]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

That is a great source on what was issued from Richmond. It is interesting that as you say the total of Flint Muskets was high - apx 25000 the converted muskets was a good size number as well apx.11000. While that is not half it is over a third. And on the flint muskets - the original intent on converting them in the US system was to make the hammers and machinery at the US Arsenal and then ship the machinery and hammers to where the muskets were stored. While it is not reflected in the information on the arms shipments south it seems that percussion hammers could have gone with at least some of the shipments.

Another interesting item was the large amount of webbing. That was amazing.

Thanks for posting it.

[ACo.]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

..................... And on the flint muskets - the original intent on converting them in the US system was to make the hammers and machinery at the US Arsenal and then ship the machinery and hammers to where the muskets were stored. While it is not reflected in the information on the arms shipments south it seems that percussion hammers could have gone with at least some of the shipments.

That is very interesting and would have worked in the Federal system but would not have affected the arms in possession of the various States, most of whom were very slow to make the updates to military arms since new arms of the latest pattern could be acquired through the above mentioned Militia Act and, honestly, no one expected a war, much less a long lasting conflict like that which they soon found themselves involved in.

Another interesting item was the large amount of webbing. That was amazing. Thanks for posting it.

Virginia as well as other states used large quantities of webbing as a less costly substitute for leather belting. It did just fine for the short term occasional use by militia but did not last long in hard service.

I'm glad you enjoyed it and will find it useful in the future, it's a great and accurate document of what was actually used in the early war period.

[ACo.]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

Below are three images of a Virginia webbing cartridge box sling:

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

At any mainstream hootenanny you are going to see more P53s and US 1861s than anything else regardless of scenario.
Thomas is right in that the first P53s imported to the Confederacy were aboard the Bermuda which
docked in Aug or Sept 1861 in Savannah. They were LAC, Barnett and Ward & Sons for the most part. The Barnetts were interesting
as some had regular Tower over the year marked locks with Barnett stamped in the wood between the lock plate screws on the reverse
side. I have a theory about that, too. Massachusetts got an earlier delivery of LACs. Whatever
the case it was not a large number compared to what was already on hand in the arsenals on both sides.

As far as point (6) about flintlocks being converted en masse after the start of the war, my understanding is that
the majority of conversions to percussion at the arsenals were antebellum.

There are accounts of soldiers saying they picked up Enfields or had Enfields at 1st Manassas, one of the
NPS rangers at the Manassas Battlefield Park shared w/ me something along those lines, in response to a Watchdog
article on no Enfields at 1st Manassas a few years ago. I still believe the soldiers were not recalling all the details right...
many accounts were written years afterwards.

US 1861s would also be very unusual at any battle before 1862. There is always a lag between when a weapon
is manufactured and the time it takes to be issued in the field. I plan on being at 1st Manassas next year at
The Watchdog tent representing Civil War News. I will either bring my US 1855 or most likely a smoothbore musket. The
US 1842 is usually a good choice for early war events. Bottom line, leave the P53 and US 1861 rifle-muskets at home for that one.

[ACo.]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

Craig, excellent information as always. Concerning my #6 above, please remember that the mass conversions were being done to arms in the possession of the Federal Government and were stored in Federal facilities. The arms in the possession of the various states and available for immediate issue to state troupes were not being converted at the same pace in the pre-war period. I may oversimplify things when I say that the flint muskets were the predominate arm in the hands of all state forces but I do not think it is far off to say so. Remember that Stonewall Jackson was requisitioning flints for his troupes as late as his Valley Campaign in 1862.

[gsusat]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

The picture on what arms the south had at the start of the war is interesting and complex. With Southern Sec of War in the late 1850s some interesting things happened. Under the Militia act of 1808 states were able to get weapons from the Federal government and did( some drawing weapons for several years in advance). Also there were Federal Arsenals in the south and the Northern Arsenals were selling weapons. I have some data from an online book but this is only partial. "Firearms of the Confederacy" by Fuller and Steuart has some great material on the subject, but my copy is at home. They printed many original documents in their work and present more complete of a picture of what was on hand.

There was almost a flood of weapons and war material heading south, that stopped with Ft. Sumpter.

From
The Political History of the United States during the Great Rebellion
1882

Spring 1860
Sec of War ordered December 29,1859
Transferred from Springfield Armory, and Watertown and Watervliet Arsenals to:
Percussion Muskets Altered Muskets Rifles
Charleston Arsenal 9,280 5,720 2,000
North Carolina Arsenal 15,480 9,520 2,000
Augusta Arsenal 12,380 7,620 2,000
Mount Vernon Arsenal 9,280 5,720 2,000
Baton Rouge Arsenal 18,580 11,420 2,000

Totals 65,000 40,000 10,000

In addition Muskets were sold from the US armory and arsenals

In 1860 25,000 altered flint muskets were sold including
State of Virginia 5,000
G. B. Lamar 10,000
J. W. Zacharie 4,000
State of Alabama 3,500
James T. Ames 1,000


As the states left the union the Federal arsenals were occupied and transfered to the states. Also States sent agents north to purchase arms and equipment - Texas bought 2000 fluted Colt 1860 armies, Georgia bought 2000 Sharps 1859 carbines, Miss bought a number of 1st model Maynard carbines and so on.

As regiments formed and were armed each clamered for the best arms avaliable. Often regiments would get enough rifles or rifle muskets to arm the flank companies, while the rest of the companies had muskets, flintlock or civilian arms. It would be neat to see a unit have a rifle company, a flint company and 1842 company.

Early was is such an interesting time as both sides tried to field large armies

[Blair]

Re: Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas

All of the information provided herein is useful and very true. Non of this documentation should be over looked for a complete historical picture!
However, "we" must keep in mind the original question, "Muskets suitable for 1st Manassas".
Suitable for this period of History, or, Suitable to the this "present period" of Historical Reenactment?
Meaning, what is available today, that might/would best represent this event?
Original firearms may not be an option for most of those wishing to be participants.
What would be the next best options?
Available Reproductions that may foot the bill?
Remember, "Musket suitable for 1st Mananas"? I must "assume" this is a quest for what is available for the 150th Anniversary to the average participant/enacter today. And not what they had provided to them 150 years ago. These can be two very different subjects/topics.
Just a thought on my part,