use of enfield bayonets

[ironbrigade6]

Hello all,
Ive been pondering the question of would the federal army have used springfield bayonets on their imported enfield muskets. It is my understanding that when Britsh equiptment was purchased they received the entire set of equiptment (Belt, box, pouch, scabboard, ect.) So when purchasing the enfield rifles themselves would they have received the muskets with, or with out bayonets? Because if they received the bayonets would they not have gotten the scabboards, and in addition the entire set? Sorry if this question sounds a little confusing.

thanks for all your help,

Jonathan Bachmann
104th Pennsylvania Volunteers
Company C
McClellan Rangers

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

There are photographs of Federal infantry armed with Enfields with fixed bayonets that clearly show the bayonets are Enfield pattern bayonets, some with blued sockets visible. Other equipment seems to be highly variable. In some cases, full sets of British gear were used (snake belt, cartridge box, cap pouch, ball bag, etc.). I have a pic stored somewhere that shows a Fed soldier in an enlisted frock with a full set of Brit accoutrements, but armed with a Lorenz.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

Hallo!

In brief and to over generalize...

When one reviews the records of say Huse and Anderson, one will often read of "stands" or stands of arms. NUG, (but not always) "stand" often refered to gun, socket bayonet, sling, snap cap, and tompion.

Some times they spell things out such as in Huse's May 21, 1861 letter where he says "I propose to take from the London Armoury Company 10,000 Enfield rifles of the latest pattern, with bayonet, scabbard, extra nipple, snap cap, and stopper complete for L3. 16s. 6d"

Still being brief....

The "typical' imported Enfield RM was made by the Birmingham Small Arms Trade and was not made with interchangeable parts. The barrel diameters could vary enough, BSAT maker and gun to gun, that Enfield bayonets did not always interchange either.

Curt

[David Fox]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

Just tried an experiment. My original Springfields will not ship any of the P53 Enfield bayonets I tried on them. Chief and perhaps only problem was the width and height of the front sight bases. M1855 Springfield bayonets were a surprisingly good fit on my 1862 Birmingham Enfield. I've always understood Richmond manufactured barrels for their rifle-muskets compatable with Enfield bayonets and, indeed, P53 Enfield bayonets fit my 1864 Richmond. Oddly, M1855 bayonets will not, although it is apparent they would with just a tad of fitting.

[mdougher]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

Hallo!

In brief and to over generalize...

When one reviews the records of say Huse and Anderson, one will often read of "stands" or stands of arms. NUG, (but not always) "stand" often refered to gun, socket bayonet, sling, snap cap, and tompion.

Some times they spell things out such as in Huse's May 21, 1861 letter where he says "I propose to take from the London Armoury Company 10,000 Enfield rifles of the latest pattern, with bayonet, scabbard, extra nipple, snap cap, and stopper complete for L3. 16s. 6d"

Still being brief....

The "typical' imported Enfield RM was made by the Birmingham Small Arms Trade and was not made with interchangeable parts. The barrel diameters could vary enough, BSAT maker and gun to gun, that Enfield bayonets did not always interchange either.

Curt

so, would it be common then to have a British Weapon and Bayonet Scabbard to go with the Enfield Bayonet, without the rest of the British Leathers? Also, does anyone have any photographs that may show this?

[Jimmayo]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

Couple of slightly revelant pictures as to the interchanging of bayonets.

One shows two dug muskets out of five I dug in CS works. One is an Enfield the other a 61 Springfield. Both were found with Springfield bayonets attached. Proof that at least Springfield bayonets were interchanged on arms in Confederate Service.

CS bayonet scabbard. The fellow that bought the set (enfield bayonet and CS scabbard) only wanted the scabbard which had a lead finial (detached). I bought the bayonet. The rig was from NC and the bayonet appeared to have been in the scabbard forever. I still can't believe he split the set up. Not really applicable to the Union but all the pictures were together so I posted this one also.

Enfield bayonet scabbard throat found in CS trench in Petersburg. The throat has been field modified to accept a Springfield bayonet. Again, not applicable to Federal use but shows that there was some interchanging by Confederate soldiers.

I tried an original M55 Springfield bayonet on two original Enfields. It fit fine on one and not on the other. The US Army would probably frown on the fit problem.

What does all this mean? Since the bayonet came with the arm there would be no reason to use a Springfield bayonet on an Enfield unless for some reason only the arms were used and the corresponding bayonet was not available (lost?).

[Jimmayo]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

so, would it be common then to have a British Weapon and Bayonet Scabbard to go with the Enfield Bayonet, without the rest of the British Leathers? Also, does anyone have any photographs that may show this?

Scabbards were purchased seperately. If you look at records of imported material there are not that many Enfield bayonet scabbards listed compared to the number of imported P-53s.

[ironbrigade6]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

Jim thank you, thats what i was wondering about. Because I have heard often times that Federal soldiers hardley ever used enfield scabboards because the scabboards were purchased with the rest of the set. So I wasnt sure if Bayonets were purchased alone without the scabboards.
Thank you everyone for your comments, everyone has been very helpful.
On a interesting side note, I always love coming across pictures of Federal soldiers wearing the English equiptment, most often I find that its Mass. soldiers. And there are the rare other random pictures of it as well.

Thank you all so much,

Jonathan Bachmann
104th Pennsylvania Volunteers
Comany C McClellan Rangers

[ironbrigade6]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

Also John, if it isnt too much trouble and you can post that picture of the guy in the frock coat with english gear and a lorenz that would be great. It sure sounds like an interesting find.

Thanks,

Jonathan Bachmann
104th Pennsylvania Volunteers
Comany C McClellan Rangers

[Benedict]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

From the Liljenquist collection recently added by the Library of Congress:

Five unidentified soldiers in Union uniform of the 6th Regiment Massachusetts Volunteer Militia outfitted with Enfield muskets in front of encampment; LC-DIG-ppmsca-27124

[Jimmayo]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

Here is an Enfield bayonet and scabbard that came out of Mass. Don't know who used it but it came from the state.

[rogue]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

(referring to the photo posted by Herr Bremen) And English cartridge boxes with sling, waist belt with snake, and low slung bayonet scabbards. MA must have gotten a complete package price, good state government?
S.Sullivan

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

Hallo!

Massachusetts and New York did their own thing.

Jacob Schuyler of Schuyler, Hartley, and Graham of NY obtained 35,721 P1853 RM's and 4,071 P1856 Rifles in 1861 an 1862. 10,737 were resold to the Ordnance Department. In 1863, 9,964 RM's were purchased. New York also purchased 1,000 RM's in NYC on the open market.

Francis Crowninshield and Charles McFarland, of MASS, purchased 13,700 RM's in 1861 and 5,680 in 1862. Plus another 1,000 from Howland & Aspinwall in NYC.

Crowninshield purchased 10,000 sets of Enfield accoutrements as well.

Massachusetts purchased a stands of Enfields and accoutrements, and as state propery were issued to the 2nd, 7th, 10th, 12th, 13th, 16th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 25th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 32nd, 35th, 36th, 38th, 44th. 47th, 48th, 53rd, and 6th Militia.

In brief and to over generalize...

NUG, apart from the MASS troops, when one sees Enfield RM's on Feds in period images, they wil tend to be "American" accoutrements.

Without going down and doing some measurements, at the moment, I am pondering what the front sight/bayonet stud size and location form the muzzle is, and the slot arrangement/measurements are, on the US
M1855 socket bayonet (M1855/M1861/M1863) versus the British P1853 socket bayonet (P1853 3rd Model) "average" of the BSAT, or London Armoury, and London Commercial RM's.

:)

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

These are the Mass troops w/ full sets of british accoutrements from 1861. You can see the snake buckled belts,
enfield frog and scabbard and P53 type box. And (ahem) you can clearly see the English rifle buckle slings. Great image.
IIRC, those were mostly LACs?

Like Curt says, with the odd exception the Union issued their own domestically produced accoutrement sets including
the Gaylord pattern bayonet scabbard.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: use of enfield bayonets

Hallo!

"IIRC, those were mostly LACs?"

Correct. Some.

The contract between LA Co. and Caleb Huse was initially to have been for 10,000, at a time when they were finishing 1300 a month. BUT, LA. Co also had an existing contract with Massachussetts for 1200 RM's to be delivered at the rate of 100 per week. But LA. Co, also had a contract with the British government that refused to amend the contract ro give any extensions.
(Side Note: The Confederates got pushed back to at least another year. It would be through the help of Archibald Hamilton, director of the LA. Co, [with his own firm as well... Sinclair, Hamilton, & Co.] that turned use and Anderson on to the BSAT as a source. So, in brief and to over generalize... with teh CS contract with the LA. Co., by the time US agent Schuyler arrived in July fo 1861, most of the London area Enfields and been spoken for except for a batch slated for the CSA that US Consul Morse was able to "renegotiate" with Barnett on a contract that was to have run through March of 1862.)

Side note: The max blade width of the US M1855 bayonet was 25/32 inches versus the 13/16 (26/32) inches of the British P1853. A "M1855" bayonet scabard could be "stretched" to accomodate the slightly wider Enfield socket bayonet as well.

Curt