Cartridge paper sizes

[Pritchett Ball]

Search function didn't work too well for me on this one.

Specifically I'm looking for a list of the actual sizes of the various papers to form the following cartridges:
.69 Buck-n-Ball/Round Ball
.69 Rifled Smoothbore Musket
.58 Rifled Musket
The references I have (Lazy Jacks, Dom Dal Bello) leave me to wonder if they are correct, though they have worked great for me in the past.

I'm looking for actual Ordnance Manual info, especially 1855 and after, for the .58 US, and .69 Minnie. (for rifled .69 smoothbores)

Please post so I and others can have them for references.

Kevin Dally

[ohpkirk]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

If this is for my project. I appreciate the extra effort you are putting in.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

Search function didn't work too well for me on this one.

Specifically I'm looking for a list of the actual sizes of the various papers to form the following cartridges:
.69 Buck-n-Ball/Round Ball
.69 Rifled Smoothbore Musket
.58 Rifled Musket
The references I have (Lazy Jacks, Dom Dal Bello) leave me to wonder if they are correct, though they have worked great for me in the past.

I'm looking for actual Ordnance Manual info, especially 1855 and after, for the .58 US, and .69 Minnie. (for rifled .69 smoothbores)

Please post so I and others can have them for references.

Kevin Dally

Why not go directly to the source, there are various copies of the Ordnance Manual online at google books.

Dave Myrick

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

Hallo!

According to the "1861 Ordnance Manual:"

Specifically I'm looking for a list of the actual sizes of the various papers to form the following cartridges:
.69 Buck-n-Ball/Round Ball 4.33 X 5.25 X 3.0
.69 Rifled Smoothbore Musket 4.0 X 4.125 X 2.5
.58 Rifled Musket 4.12 X 4.0 X 2.5

Curt

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

Cody:
Your request got me to thinking that I never had the true dimensions for the paper sizes they actually used 1855 and beyond. I have used facsimiles of paper sizes, but had nothing at home that mirrored what they used. The closest thing I had was the attached reference, but no dimensions.

When I made live rounds, always made two of the wrappers, one to cover outside, one to shove inside the paper case, up into the hollow of the Minnie, to hold the powder, and keep the powder away from the bullet.

This works OK, but it's not what I know they did back then in 1855 to the early part of the war. I know the ST. Louis Arsenal used the stiff paper rolled up and crimped inside the outer case, to give stiffness to the cartridge, and protect the bullet/powder from contacting each other. I know they did this thru the war, as I have seen pictures of originals, and they show the lower section to be formed this way. http://www.baymediapro.com/collectio...ils.asp?BID=57
You can see a definite difference between the bullet, and where the powder is stored...the powder cylinder is not shoved up into the hollow bace of the cartridge, thus making the cartridge longer, than if it was shoved all the way up into the hollow.

Anyone got the info I need?

Kevin Dally

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

According to the "1861 Ordnance Manual:"

Specifically I'm looking for a list of the actual sizes of the various papers to form the following cartridges:
.69 Buck-n-Ball/Round Ball 4.33 X 5.25 X 3.0
.69 Rifled Smoothbore Musket 4.0 X 4.125 X 2.5
.58 Rifled Musket 4.12 X 4.0 X 2.5

Curt
Hey Curt, I was hoping you would step up to the plate! You must have posted while I was writing a reply to Cody.

My second post, is what I'm seeing an experiment, or the final adopted cartridge form in 1855?
Respectfully:

Kevin Dally

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

Hallo!

Hmmmmm. I think you are thinking about the problems initially experienced with the .58 "Minie" and .69 EB where the beeswax/tallow lube was getting into the powder in warmer weather?

Yes, the initial of the "M1855" cartridge was made with three pieces of paper: the outer wraper, the cylinder case, and the cylinder wrapper. Those three making the cartridge's outer wrapper, with a separate "cylinder" for the powder charge, and a piece of "rocket paper" to reinforce the walls of the powder cylidner mkaing it extra rigid to allow the outer paper to tear witohut also tearing the powder charge's case.

Somewhere along the line, someone at St. Louis fussed about it, and they deleted the "rocket paper" and made the wrapper slightly larger- which was copied by Kennebec and Allegheny. That had an influence on the new 1861 Ordnance Manual which called for two pieces of the same type and size of paper to be used for the outer wrapper and the powder case. One can NUG tell the post 1861 type cartridges by the two folds in the tails, and that their bundle paper was not waterproofed or labelled (St. Louis continuing to label only).

Curt

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

"Somewhere along the line, someone at St. Louis fussed about it, and they deleted the "rocket paper" and made the wrapper slightly larger- which was copied by Kennebec and Allegheny. "

Curt, as always, Thanks! The picture of an 1855 cartridge was emailed to me by someone a while back, it looks to be what your talking about.

Kevin Dally

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

"there are various copies of the Ordnance Manual online at google books."

Dave:

OK, thanks for throwing the Pacific Ocean at me when I was standing there with a cup in hand! (LoL!)
I gotta dig into THAT source of info!
Thanks for the advice!

Kevin Dally

[44 Henry]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

I use my Springfield 1842 for early war events. What kind of paper did they use to make the paper cartridges from? I have always thought that the paper would have been "rag paper" and not wood plup paper. I think that process for wood plup paper came about in the 1850s in Europe but was not in wide spread production until after the Civil War. However in doing a little research I have not been able to come up with the definitive answer as to what paper would have been used. Thanks for any information concerning the type of paper. What paper do most of you use for making cartridges from? I have use plain newsprint paper but feel this is not the most authentic paper I could use.

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

Andrew,

I use 3M 'Masking Paper'... the weight is good, it forms well and tears easily when your bite down on it. It was what is recommended in John Tobey's Article in the Columbia Rifles Reseach Compendium.

Find the 12" wide rolls in the painting supply section at any large hardware store like Lowes or Home Depot. The rolls come in several colors. I have a roll of plain brown and light green so I can make .58cal and .69cal arsenal packs per the regulations. There are wider (36") rolls also labled 'Masking Paper' but it is much heavier paper. I bought the wrong kind the first time, but no fear... it is good for cutting clothing patterns on.

The most important page out of The ordnance manual for the use of Officers of the United States Army is page 270. I have a copy printed out in my minature powder magazine...

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

Hallo!

Correct...

"Rag" paper. (The main reason we still have surviving CW cartridges.)

Rag paper is rare these daze, and most everyone uses modern pulp papers (me too).

There is an alternative but few or none use it. In fancy stationary shops, one can buy various "rag papers." Last time i looked, they were $2.00 for a 8 X 10 sheet.

(Yeah, I know. As with custom-built rifles, cartridge wrappers and papers are one "farby" area where even the Authentics look they other way in the expedient name of Cost.)

;)

Curt

[44 Henry]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

Hallo!

Correct...

"Rag" paper. (The main reason we still have surviving CW cartridges.)

Rag paper is rare these daze, and most everyone uses modern pulp papers (me too).

There is an alternative but few or none use it. In fancy stationary shops, one can buy various "rag papers." Last time i looked, they were $2.00 for a 8 X 10 sheet.

(Yeah, I know. As with custom-built rifles, cartridge wrappers and papers are one "farby" area where even the Authentics look they other way in the expedient name of Cost.)

;)

Curt

I did find a place that has the 24 inch by 50 foot roll of 100% cotton rag paper. I am not sure how many cartridges could be made from it which would be important to be able to figure how much it would cost per round in order to have authentic cartridges. By using paper like this you could have cartridges that would be of proper size from the proper paper. As we all know authencity has a price.

[fatocat]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

I did find a place that has the 24 inch by 50 foot roll of 100% cotton rag paper. I am not sure how many cartridges could be made from it which would be important to be able to figure how much it would cost per round in order to have authentic cartridges. By using paper like this you could have cartridges that would be of proper size from the proper paper. As we all know authencity has a price.

Hi Andrew, where did you find it?

Thank you,

[44 Henry]

Re: Cartridge paper sizes

Hi Andrew, where did you find it?

Thank you,

The vendor is not an approved vendor so I can not mention it. However a search on the internet would reveal several sources. The price is expensive but then we all know that authenticity is expensive. You are not going to buy an authentic sack coat for $50. Some rough calculations bring the cost per round made from “rag paper” at around 60 cents for the paper cartridge, add to that the powder and cap. That brings the cost to what some are paying to reenact with a Spencer or Henry rifle. How expensive is too expensive is a question that each person will have to answer for himself? The correct size for the paper used is as impprtant as using the correct paper.