Confederate soldiers without bayonets

[ES1861]

Comrades,

I remember reading from Men at Arms Series that many Confederate soldiers didn't carry a bayonet because they had thrown them away on long marches or because they werent issued at all. Any opinions on this?

Would an impression of an ANV soldier without a bayonet be farby?

Yours,
Eric Seppala

[L.S.Smythers]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

Comrades,

I remember reading from Men at Arms Series that many Confederate soldiers didn't carry a bayonet because they had thrown them away on long marches or because they werent issued at all. Any opinions on this?

Would an impression of an ANV soldier without a bayonet be farby?

Yours,
Eric Seppala

Im not sure about the ANV but the Chickamauga NMP guidlines suggest that only 1/3 of the troops should carry bayonets. They were almost worthless items that you would have to lug all over creation. I would have thrown mine away too, but if you show up at an event without one they look at you like you have commitet a cardinal sin. That needs to change, especailly for late war events.

Troy Alton
Smythers Mess
19th Tennessee
YHR
WIG

[BarryDusel]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

If supply shortages caused the problem. That is one thing. If a soldier was never issued a bayonet it would be understandable to not have one. The government made every effort to ensure it's soldiers were issued certain items. Once those items were issued .To lose those items made the offending soldier answerable to his NCO's and Officers. While, a bayonet may not seem worthwhile to a 21st century reenactor, it was worthwhile to a 19th century Soldier. Maybe it wasn't a popular item of issue . It was a part of his weapons system. To be a generic ACW G.I grunt carrying a bayonet is paramount . If a particular impression is being attempted and it is proven through reasearch that said regiment had no bayonets or a shortage thereof then may all means do so.
BTW, the MAA series by Osprey isn't reliable as a research vehicle.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

Why just late war Confederates? What about the status of the issued equipment of Sherman's boys (after Bentonville) when they marched down Walnut Street into camp at Goldsboro NC?

[dusty27]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

Some arguments for having a bayonet;

Digging tool

Cooking tool

Not to mention stacking arms.

In the realm of things to drop along the way, I probably would have held onto the bayonet

[CYoungJSU]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

According to a piece in Larry J. Daniels book, Soldiering in the Army of Tennesse: A portrait of Life in a Confederate Army, he brings up the issue of the bayonet while the Confederates camped near Tullahoma in the summer of 1863. Daniels tells us that "While at Tullahoma, the infantry reported a dearth of bayonets; only half of the troops were supplied with them"(48).
Lieutenant Colonel Arthur Fremantle addresses the problem in his diary. In The Fremantle Diary: A Journal of the Confederacy, edited by Walter Lord, Fremantle, reviewing St. John Liddell's brigade at Bellbuckle, recalls, "Many however, had lost or thrown away their bayonets, which they don't appear to value properly, as they assert that they have never met any Yankees who would wait for that weapon" (124-125).
Obviously, this is a review of only one brigade of the army but it could give us some insight to this being something fairly popular throughout the army. While presenting public history for CCNMP, I usually did not carry a bayonet unless I was portraying an ANV soldier or a AOTC soldier. I often quoted the above account to the general public that I encountered. I did this to let the public know that not every soldier had every piece of equipment that was "on the market" at the time. When I do get some time, I will look into what I can possibly find on the ANV soldier and the bayonet situation.

Christopher Young

[Enfilade]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

"Would an impression of an ANV soldier without a bayonet be farby?"- Yours, Eric Sepalla

Eric,

While an event with unit generic impressions like say a "Gettysburg Hootenany" will almost always let anything go, however a unit/company specific well documented impression could very well be farby without a bayonet. It depends on who, what, when, where, and how.

If you are going as an "ANV soldier at the Gettysburg 141st annual Hooter and Howler Event" then what does it matter? Just do your best under the circumstances. But if you are doing Company A, 53d NCT under Col. W.A. Owens, Daniel's Brigade, Rodes' Division at the Gettysburg NPS event, then a well researched soldier specific impression is needed. You will find that events with more stringet guidelines and more specific details of units/soldiers portrayed, will be much more rewarding than a less than specific or more generic impression wil afford.

So your question is as ambiguous as the answer could be. It just depends on how good a quality of impression you are wanting to make of it.

I hope this helps,

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[marlin teat]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

I'm going to elaborate on one of Dusty's point -- stacking -- but give a modern reason. Safety is a primary concern for us and the alternative to stacking arms is grounding arms. Grounding arms has the potential for "scooping up" gravel or debris from the ground.

I was once commanded a company where this actually happened. My habit had always been to bring a company to "reverse arms" after ground arms and tell the men to give the musket a shake. This one time a small piece of pea gravel came rolling out. Since then it has been S.O.P. for me that "if you can't stack em', you gotta hold em'."

I'm a great fan of the Chick/Chatt authenticity regs but you have to remember that these are for Living History Programs. The regs also call for only a small percentage of the men to carry canteens but how many officers are going to allow their men to go into a modern event without a handy supply of water?

[lhsnj]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

Marlin

Hardee's 1855 manual gives us another option for stacking. It doesn't involve the use of the bayonet, so for groups that are light on bayonets. Could it be possible that they may have reverted back to this drill?

Stack-ARMS.
410. At this command the front rank man of every even numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand near the upper band; will place the butt a little in advance of his left too, the barrel turned towards the body, and draw the rammer slightly from its place; the front rank man of every, odd numbered file will also draw the rammer slightly, and ass his piece to the man next on his left, who will seize it with the right hand near the upper band, and place the butt a little in advance of the right too of the man next on his right, the barrel turned to the front; he will then cross the rammers 'of the two pieces, the rammer of the piece of the odd numbered man being inside; the rear rank man of every even file will also draw his rammer, lean his piece forward, the lock plate downwards, advance the right foot about six inches, and insert the rammer between the rammer and barrel of the piece of his front rank man; with his left hand he will place the butt of his piece on the ground, thirty-two inches in rear of, and perpendicular to, the front rank, bringing back his, right foot by the side of the left; the front rank man of every even file will at the same time lean the stack to the rear, quit it with his is right hand, and force all the ram rammers down. The stack being thus formed, the rear rank man of every odd file will pass his into his left hand, the barrel to the front, and inclining it forward, will rest it on the stack.

411. The men of both ranks having taken the position of the soldier without arms, the instructor will command:

This allows you to stack and keep debris from going down the barrels when you ground. It doesn't take much longer to perform than Hardees 62 with bayonets.

[marlin teat]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

I think there is a high possibility that at least some stacked using rammers. But even if they did ground arms, they probably weren't all that worried about a little debris down the barrel during an engagement. My worry is a modern worry. I've always been considered a mother hen in regard to safety, but then I've been shot with staples, had wonder-wads whistle over my head, and been blasted in the face by 14 year old dismounted cavalry in bad hats.

(I know the best way to avoid these incidents is to stay away from maintream events but these happened in my younger and more reckless days.)

[Reserve]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

Here is a specific instance that shows at some times some units did not have bayonets. Buy one and use it when it is specifically correct for the unit being portrayed at the event you are attending.

“On the 10th instant, I inspected three companies of Bonaud's battalion of infantry, stationed near Quincy, Fla., doing provost duty in Quincy.
1. Company A, Captain J. A. Cotten; Number of effective men present, 34; altered muskets, 33 without bayonets,number of men in company, 78; accouterments complete; these accouterments are very poor, the cartridge-boxes, waist-belts, &c., being made of canvas covered with a sort of lacquer." XXXV OR’s p 584

[markj]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

Greetings,

Here's another inspection report:

INSPECTOR-GEN.'S OFFICE,
ARMY OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA,
September 23, 1864
Gen. S. COOPER,
Adjutant and Inspector Gen.:

***Between the 9th and 13th of August [1864] I inspected in the trenches [in front of Petersburg] under arms Heth's division. ***I found the arms and accouterments in very bad condition in all the regiments except the Second [Mississippi]...and Eleventh [Mississippi]. In the Second they were good; in the Eleventh very good, clean inside and bright outside; the accouterments attached to the guns, which were secured between pegs driven in the breast works. ***Cooke's brigade I found in excellent order, as it always is.***Whether in camp, in the trenches, or on the march it is distinguished for its high discipline and good conduct.***The arms and accouterments were so generally good that there is no occasion for faultfinding with any. The inspection was creditable in all respects as if it had been made in winter quarters. ***[In] Fry's brigade...[it] presented, as it had done at preceding inspections, but few evidences of discipline. In the Fourteenth and Seventh Tennessee guns and accouterments [were in] fair condition. Thirteenth Alabama...was in discreditable order; guns very rusty.***In the Virginia regiments the guns for the most part were in serviceable order. ***In MacRae's brigade...[the] Eleventh [North Carolina], in discipline, arms, accouterments, and clothing [was good]; police was fair. ***[The] brigade commander...possesses...the power to control and correct the evils resulting [from] neglect of duty.***The proof of this view is in the fact that in the same division will be found one brigade with its complement of bayonets and its guns always bright, whilst another just by...has no bayonets and its guns invariably in bad order... ***General Orders, No. 110, Army Headquarters, 1862, requires the inspection of arms and roll-call at the beginning and close of every march... ***The Twenty-sixth Mississippi Regiment, which was not only the worst in [Davis'] brigade [of Heth's division], but whose guns and accouterments were in discreditable condition before, now excelled any regiment in the brigade. There was nothing indeed in the appearance and condition of the brigade about which I could find fault.

H. E. PEYTON,
Lieut.-Col., Assistant Adjutant and Inspector Gen.

(OR, Series I, Vol. 42, Part II, Correspondence, Etc. Serial No. 88)


Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Possum Skinner]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

Here's an interesting item to think about. I have the records of a good friend's ggggrandfather, Thomas Jefferson Ayers, Co.D, 2nd Arkansas Infantry.

March 12, 1862: Present, Charged $12 for loss of bayonet and scabbard.

Now a Confederate Pvt. only made $11 a month, and that seems like a pretty steep penalty. Of course it never says anywhere on the muster rolls if he was ever issued another one. This is fairly early on, and I haven't seen this again with anybody else, but I don't think I would throw something away that cost me more than a month's pay.

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Confederate soldiers without bayonets

This is from Col. H. B. Granbury, Seventh Texas Infantry.
IN CAMP NEAR CALHOUN STATION, MISS.
May 15, 1863...from his Official Report on the Battle of Raymond, in part,

"As my skirmishers neared the wood on the brow of the hill, the enemy commenced firing from their first line of infantry, posted near the base of the hill. I ordered my regiment to advance in double-quick time. The men obeyed with alacrity, and, when in view of the enemy, rushed forward with a shout. So near were the enemy and so impetuous the charge, that my regiment could have blooded a hundred bayonets had the men been supplied with that weapon."


Kevin Dally

[Dignann]

More from the ORs

Correspondence from Joseph E. Johnston, as published in OR , Vol. XXXII, Part 2, pp. 644, 697.


DALTON, February 1, 1864.
Col. J. GORGAS,
Richmond:
We want bayonets very much. Can you send us some, and that immediately?
J. E. JOHNSTON.


DALTON, February 1, 1864.
His Excellency the PRESIDENT,
Richmond:
Our scouts near the Tennessee report Sherman's corps crossing the river on the night of the 29th, 20 miles above Guntersville. The weather is very mild and roads practicable. Our artillery horses are too feeble to maneuver the batteries. We want bayonets as well as shoes.
J. E. JOHNSTON.


DALTON, February 8, 1864.
Memorandum for Colonel Browne, aide-de-camp.
...We have a few unarmed men in each brigade; about half are without bayonets.
...The efficient chief of ordnance supplies us well with everything pertaining to his department except bayonets, which it is known cannot be furnished.
J. E. JOHNSTON


At least in Johnston's army, during the winter of 1864, it appears that the lack of bayonets was from an inability of getting them supplied.

Carlton McCarthy, in his Detailed Minutiae of Soldier Life.. (1882), states, on page 27:

"The infantry found out that bayonets were not of much use, and did not hesitate to throw them, with the scabbard, away."

However, McCarthy should be read with some caution. As he was an ardent subscriber to the "Lost Cause" perspective, with a lean toward a romantic view of the ANV, his descriptions are frequently overdone, perhaps even exaggerated.

Eric