Scott's stacking of arms

[Captain of Kopenick]

I was looking at using Scott's for 1861. I am confused on the stacking of arms when there are 3 ranks. Each file has it's own stack, yet it seems like there would be a terrible amount of overlap of muskets. It also seems that one could not keep a line of muskets straight. Am I missing something?

Daniel Keith
4th Missouri

[Andrew Keehan]

Re: Scott's stacking of arms

They do overlap. It's great! The individual stack is identical to later versions (Hardee, Gilham, Casey &c.), but each stack crosses the other, so every file leader but the leftmost has a musket stock between his feet. It's even easier to get back into your ranks. We were just practicing this on Saturday at Sutter's Fort, and it's always impressive to me how neat and clean it all is.

The only thing that bugs me now is that Scott's, unlike the later manuals, has the third bayonet passing above the shanks, not below. I was reading that last night after we had spent all day Saturday doing it the other way. I don't have three muskets in front me to work it out so I'm not sure what the difference would be. Has anyone else done it that way?

[john duffer]

Re: Scott's stacking of arms

?? There's no difference. The front rank (front rank of three ranks or number two of a two rank formation) puts the butt of the "third piece" between the feet of the "man next on the right". There's no more overlap for one over the other.


SCOTT' S like CASEY'S, et al says "between and under the shanks of the two other bayonets."

[Andrew Keehan]

Re: Scott's stacking of arms

John,
Let me clarify. I should have specified that I was using Scott's 1835 manual. It reads:

Stack--Arms.

410. At this, the front rank man of every file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand above the middle band, and place the butt behind and near the right foot of the next man on the left, the barrel turned to the front. At the same time each centre rank man will hand his piece to his file leader; the latter will receive it with his right hand two inches above the middle band, throw the butt about thirty-two inches to the front, opposite to his right shoulder, inclining the muzzle towards him, and lock the shanks of the two bayonets; the lock of his second piece towards the right, and the shank above that of the first piece. The rear rank man of each file will hand his piece to his centre rank man, who will receive it with the right hand above the tail-band, project the bayonet forward, and introduce it (with both hands) between the blades and ABOVE THE SHANKS of the other two bayonets. He will then abandon the piece to his file leader, who will receive it with the right hand under the middle band, bring the butt to the front, holding up his own piece and the stack with the left hand, and place the butt of this third piece between the feet of the next man on the right, the S plate to the front.

This bit is the same for the two rank version a couple of paragraphs later:

414. If the squad (company, &c.) were formed in two instead of three ranks, arms would be stacked by the same command, and in the following manner:

415. At the command stack arms, the front rank man of every even numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand above the middle band, and place the butt behind and near the right foot of the man next on the left, the barrel turned to the front. At the same time the front rank man of every odd numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand below the middle band, and hand it to the man next on the left; the latter will receive it with the right hand two inches above the middle band, throw the butt about thirty-two inches to the front, opposite to his right shoulder, inclining the muzzle towards him, and lock the shanks of the two bayonets: the lock of this second piece towards the right, and its shank above that of the first piece. The rear rank man of every even file will project his bayonet forward, and introduce it (using both hands) between and ABOVE THE SHANKS of the two other bayonets. He will then abandon the piece to his file leader, who will receive it with the right hand under the middle hand, bring the butt to the front, holding up his own piece and the stack with the left hand, and place the butt of this third piece between the feet of the man next on the right, the S plate to the front. The stack thus formed, the rear rank man of every odd file will pass his piece into his left hand, the barrel turned to the front, and, sloping the bayonet forward, rest it on the stack.

I was confused by this and not sure if it would actually even work, which is why I asked the question. You are correct that in subsequent version of Scott's manual (1857, 1861 &c.) the line is changed to "under the shanks." The only difference in the individual stack from Scott to Casey is the fourth piece that is just leaned on. In fact, the stack arms for two ranks from Scott's is copied word for word in Casey, right down to the part about the S plate, which the 1861 rifle-musket doesn't have.

[john duffer]

Re: Scott's stacking of arms

Andrew

I used the Drill Network version, not sure which printing it is. I have an original but it's so fragile I typically don't pull it out and it's an 1861 reprint anyway. However, I also have an original of the 1831 Ordonnance which Scott translated (in better shape than most of my 2010 books, go figure) which says "entre et sous les branches des baionnettes des deux autres armes" hence "under the shanks". I'm not sure what may be your source but it seems to be a misprint or error in translation that was fixed in later editions - perhaps in response to the hundreds of stacks that collapsed. :-)

[Captain of Kopenick]

Re: Scott's stacking of arms

Thanks for the help. I will work on the stack this weekend.

[Andrew Keehan]

Re: Scott's stacking of arms

John,
The Scott's I referenced is a scan from google books so it's as good as the real thing. Since every other volume seems to have it the other way around, I suspect one of two things. Most likely it's a simple mistranslation of the original you cited. I think this is more likely than the possibility of it being a typographical error because the error is repeated consistently. Another possibility is that the author (or translator) was looking at the bayonet with the point down and thinking below is above if you turn it over. That seems pretty unlikely as well now that I've seen it written out. Yep, I'm thinking mistranslation.

[john duffer]

Re: Scott's stacking of arms

Andrew

Yeah, I found the Google Books 1835 in the meantime and you are quite right. Looking at Baxter, Lee, Gilham, later printings of Scott, et al it does seem like a translation error as all say below. I can't exactly pin down where the error occurs though. It's interesting the three ranks version says "between the blades and ABOVE THE SHANKS of the" while the two rank says " between and ABOVE THE SHANKS of the". In the French manual the two rank pretty much just uses a shorthand reference to each portion of the three rank and doesn't actually address above and below again. I don't know if someone took branches to mean blades in this instance. Earlier the French just says bayonet and doesn't refer to shanks so maybe this threw a loop. I'm curious to how the error (if such it may be) came to light. I wish I had three muskets and four or five hands so I could see if the stack would still work or fall down on the spot so that somebody would say 'Could they have meant under ?"