Parade Rest Help

[Jalaco]

Hello all. In my current group, when we go to parade rest, we bring the right foot behind the left in a T, and place the piece directly in front of the body, ramrod to the right, left hand over right near the top band.
I'm beginning to think this may be a reenactorism (or it may obviously be, and we are un-aware). From what I've read in manuals and seen from photos, the two most popular forms were the across the body and into the right shoulder.

Across the body: feet in the traditional T. The piece is slanted across the body, muzzle on the left, with the butt resting on the ground. Left over right, hands near the top band.

Into the shoulder: From order arms, piece is brought back into the right shoulder. Feet in T. Left hand supports right hand near the waist, the piece is secured in the right shoulder and covered with the right arm.


Which is right, or most correct? I suppose it may be possible that one is more authentic depending on what side, theater, unit, manual used, year, veteran status, etc, etc. However, what do ya'll use for parade rest 99% of the time? I'm looking to get this changed in my unit, and I'm not sure which one is more authentic in general for eastern federals.

[Silas]

Re: Parade Rest help.

Show me in either method where the feet go into a "T" because I don't see it :

Being on parade, and at order arms, if it be wished to give the men rest, the command will be :

Parade—REST.

At the command, rest, turn the piece on the heel of the butt, the barrel to the left, the muzzle in front of the centre of the body ; seize it at the same time with the left hand just above, and with the right at the upper band ; carry the right foot six inches to the rear, the left knee slightly bent.

From the Manual for Relieving Sentinels as found in Hardee's Revised.

On all parades of ceremony, such as Reviews, Guard-mounting, at Troop or Retreat parades, instead of the word "Rest," which allows the men to move or change the position of their bodies, the command will be

"PARADE-REST!"

At the last word of this command, the soldier will carry the right foot six inches in rear of the left heel, the left knee slightly bent, the body upright upon the right leg; the musket resting against the hollow of the right shoulder, the hands crossed in front, the backs of them outward, and the left hand uppermost.

Revised United States Army Regulations of 1861.

If the method from the Tactics, which can also be found in Casey, or from the Regulations, which can also be found in the C.S. Regulation, intended the feet placed in a "T", it would have been stated clearly. For example :

READY.
One time and three motions.

171. (First motion.) Raise the piece slightly with the right hand, making a half face to the right on the left heel ; carry the right foot to the rear, and place it at right angles to the left, the hollow of it opposite to, and against the left heel ; grasp the piece with the left hand at the lower band and detach it slightly from the shoulder.

Para 171. Hardee's Revised, School of the Soldier. Link : http://draytons.tripod.com/hardeesocosk.htm#so171

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Parade Rest help.

Could this poll be reworded to say "by the manuals" or "regualtions" at least for us Federals. That I would be interested to see a breakout of.

[FlatLandFed]

Re: Parade Rest help.

Very timely. At Memorial Day ceremonies, we had almost as many variations of the interpretation of Parade-Rest as there were privates in the ranks. I suggested we revisit "the" manual before our next ceremony -- your post, Silas, puts it all in one place and will be very helpful.
Paul Hadley

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Parade Rest help.

Is this really a question for a poll? It would seem to be a matter of right or wrong. As Silas points out, there are two positions for parade rest, neither of which involve teeing the feet, so that's just a mistake.

The position in the Regs is the older one, designed for a musket that is somewhat longer than a rifle. The position in the Tactics was developed for the new, shorter weapon. In general, that's probably the one that most of us should use, since we're generally armed with a rifle musket.

But you will see photographs of troops using the position in the Regs with a rifle musket, and unless you have a specific reference for the specific unit you portray, there's no definitive way to say what's "right," except that using the position of the Regs with a rifle will result in some dropped weapons.

The Army and Navy Journal addressed the question in the December 24, 1864 issue, in which the Commandant of Cadets at West Point provided answers to several "Questions in Tactics" written to the editor. In this case he writes, "The parade-rest of the Tactics is used." This should settle the matter definitively, at least for Federals in the latter part of the war. But the fact that the question came up at all, and was considered worthy of response in a national publication, tells us that a certain degree of confusion is itself authentic... :o

[Jalaco]

Re: Parade Rest help.

Thanks for all the info everyone. Silas, forgive me for misspeaking; I didn’t mean a literal ‘T’ with the feet. I meant more or less the right foot carried behind the left foot, and the right foot making an angle with the left. That is what I generally meant by a T, although I suppose it is a mistake to word it that way. So first off, forgive me for that folks.

And Mr. Schaffner, being that there are the two methods, I wasn’t sure if one method would be more correct depending on unit, theater, year, etc, so I just figured I’d put it in a poll to see which was more generally used during the war, which would be more correct. Forgive me if it should be placed in a different forum section of the forum though. As you said, ‘there’s no definitive way to say what’s “right”, so I wasn’t sure which should be used by federals in general
Although it is appearing that the version used in tactics, as opposed to the regulations, would have been used more generally?

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Parade Rest help.

And Mr. Schaffner, being that there are the two methods, I wasn’t sure if one method would be more correct depending on unit, theater, year, etc, so I just figured I’d put it in a poll to see which was more generally used during the war, which would be more correct. Forgive me if it should be placed in a different forum section of the forum though. As you said, ‘there’s no definitive way to say what’s “right”, so I wasn’t sure which should be used by federals in general
Although it is appearing that the version used in tactics, as opposed to the regulations, would have been used more generally?

I think you've raised a good question, but I personally wouldn't trust an answer based on the consensus of reenactors who answered a poll. Probably the best way to try to determine this would be to study a range of photographs and find which method appears most frequently (if any) at different points in the war. Until then, I lean toward your assumption about using the method in the Tactics for units armed with the rifle musket, especially from 1863 on. I base this on the fact that when Casey's supplanted the 1861 Tactics in the fall of 1862, the new instructions dropped the separate manual of arms for the musket.

But I know there were exceptions. This photo, for example, shows soldiers of the VRC at parade rest in Washington Circle in April '65: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cwpb.04187/?co=cwp They're using the method from the Regulations, perhaps because they, like most of the VRC, still carried the old smoothbores.

[john duffer]

Re: Parade Rest help.

" The position in the Regs is the older one, designed for a musket that is somewhat longer than a rifle. The position in the Tactics was developed for the new, shorter weapon. In general, that's probably the one that most of us should use, since we're generally armed with a rifle musket. "

I'm not sure how you're making this leap Mr. Schaffner. Differences in weapons length are two band versus three band rather than smoothbore versus rifled. HARDEE'S 1855 (for the two band rifle), HARDEE'S Goetzel (for the "use of the arms generally in the hands of the troops in the Confederate States"), U.S. TACTICS (rifle and musket) and CASEY'S (rifle and rifle musket) all use the same position.

" I base this on the fact that when Casey's supplanted the 1861 Tactics in the fall of 1862, the new instructions dropped the separate manual of arms for the musket. "

CASEY'S does away with shoulder arms being on the left but provides for both two band and three band weapons during loading, fix bayonet, stacking arms. etc.

[Jalaco]

Re: Parade Rest help.

That’s a good point Mr. Schaffner, a poll might not have been the best idea on my part. I suppose that’s why I’m not an officer! But those that did vote seem to support the tactics as well. A good deal of the photos I’ve looked at (those that I have found with soldiers at some form of parade-rest, which is numbered as of now) show federal troops using the tactics method. Although like the link you posted, I have found a few using the regulations.
As you suggested though, I’ll be looking at a good deal more period pictures to see. Does your unit personally use the tactics method?

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Parade Rest help.

Mr. Duffer, based on my copy of Casey's, and the difference between my '42 and my '61, I stand by my statement about parade-rest. The '42 musket with three bands (as well as the far less common rifled musket of the same vintage) is longer than both the '61 rifle musket with three bands and the rifle with two bands, and Casey's has but one manual of arms, whereas the earlier Tactics has a separate manual for both rifle and musket. The retention of two methods for stacking (for rifle and rifle musket) has nothing to do with the prescribed method for parade-rest. There's no "leap" involved that I can see, though you are of course free to expand on your criticism as far as it's relevant to the question raised.

Jalaco, my unit generally uses the method described in the Tactics.

[Silas]

A couple text for the mix

Ellsworth and his manual for the rifle musket has the weapon in the shoulder :

107 Parade—Rest.
(When the musket is at Order Arms.)
One time and two motions.

274. (First motion.) Carry back the right foot, without turning it, about six inches.
275. (Second motion.) Let the piece rest against the shoulder, clasp the hands in front—left hand outside, fingers turned under, partially closed, arms well extended; bend slightly the left knee. Keep the head and eyes square to the front, remain silent and immovable, until the command,

Attention.

Ellsworth, p. 66 at http://books.google.com/books?id=KkB...page&q&f=false

The affirmative statement in Ellsworth about not turning the right foot is interesting.

Baxter is a little convoluted. He doesn't explicitly address parade rest with arms. He has parade—rest without arms and rest with arms from order. Without arms :

Parade—Rest.

Carry back the right foot about four inches to the rear, (without moving the left); rest the weight of the body on that leg, bending the left knee but slightly; cross the hands in front of the body, the left hand on top of and supporting the right wrist; shoulders square to the front: head erect, and the eyes meeting the ground fifteen paces in advance. In this position remain steady until the command:

Attention—Squad.

is given.

Baxter, p. 12 at http://books.google.com/books?id=nK_...page&q&f=false

With arms and at order :

Rest.

Take the position as represented in fig. 34. See also the remarks on the Rest at page 11, 12.

Baxter at p. 32.

The above text isn't very helpful, but the drawing is parade rest from the regulations and the same as noted above by Ellsworth from his fancy drill manual. I didn't notice anything about the across the body method as noted in the manual for relieving sentries. Each seemed to only note one method : the regulation method.

[Jalaco]

Re: A couple text for the mix

But those manuals weren't used to the extent as Casey's was for federals, I believe. A question though; the 'across the body' method in tactics, as you said Silas, is in the manual for relieving sentires. Maybe this is a silly question, but is it possible that the regulation method of 'into the shoulder' would have been used in all other instances?

[Silas]

Re: Parade Rest Help

I've removed the poll which continued to push this thread to the top every time someone cast a vote for what they believed was the more correct version between two correct versions. In removing the guts from the poll into this thread, the poll itself has vanished which is just fine with me. I didn't think either answer was right or wrong. Each was right depending upon time, place or manner that it was used.

In searching for the poll before deleting it but after removing all the guts of the original thread, I found this thread : http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...of-Parade-Rest which concerns a similar question from a couple years ago. I expressed my view then about the evolution of methods. After reconsidering it, I'm sticking with my original expression. I need some facts to change my mind, and I haven't seen any new ones.

[john duffer]

Re: Parade Rest Help

I'm inclined to agree with Silas' view from the earlier thread. That's assuming that anyone at the time even put that much thought into it. HARDEE'S 1855 is a translation of the 1845 ORDONNANCE. About 95% of HARDEE'S Goetzel, U.S. TACTICS and SOS and SOC in CASEY'S are copied from the 1855 - hence across the body could well become the de facto standard just from exposure by the time UPTON writes.

[Jalaco]

Re: Parade Rest Help

Thanks Silas! That earlier response you posted was very helpful. And upon reflection, the poll probably wasn't the best idea I've ever had, I suppose. That's what I get for posting under the influence of too much ice cream.