Where to Wear Your Haversack & Canteen?

[A7X]

Does anyone know where i would be able to get a pattern for a federal haversack, kinda a do it yourself thing, if anyone has any information i would be most greatful. thanks alot!!


Jonathan Kroppmann

[Clark Badgett]

Re: federal haversack pattern

I don't know of anyone that sells a pattern. If possible you could find an original and copy it, but since original haversacks aren't located around every bend, you could find a pard that owns a high quality repro and make a copy of it. But please don't plan on making them for sale unless all the work, including examining the original is your own.

[James Masson]

Re: federal haversack pattern

I don't know of anyone that sells a pattern. If possible you could find an original and copy it, but since original haversacks aren't located around every bend, you could find a pard that owns a high quality repro and make a copy of it. But please don't plan on making them for sale unless all the work, including examining the original is your own.

I don't really recommend copying a reproduction, no matter how high quality they are. They are reproductions and have their flaws. Most any big collection will have a Federal Haversack in it. Call them and ask if they would allow you to examine it. If they do, they'll lay down some ground rules that I suggest you follow, to the "T". If you follow their rules, they'll invite you back for more visits.

James Masson

[Clark Badgett]

Re: federal haversack pattern

James, the originals also had their flaws. I've looked at three originals, and none were the same. One thing they all had in common was construction styles.

[James Masson]

Re: federal haversack pattern

Ok, so the three originals you've examined are not exactly the same. Much the same that all 7 (or was it 6, I can't remember) of the surviving Columbus Depot jackets aren't all the same. I don't think that's the point of this thread.

The Johnathan asked if there was a commercially available pattern for a Federal haversacks. You replied that there isn't one that you know and I agree with that, I'm not aware of a commercially available pattern either. You then recommended that he find a high quality reproduction and reproduce it. I replied that reproducing a reproduction is not a wise thing, IMHO. Reproductions are not exact and never will be exact copies of original items. The high quality ones get damn close, but they don't get all the way there. I feel that reproducing a reproduction is not right, for more than one reason. The biggest is that any high quality reproduction will have a lot of research and time behind it. I know that if I had taken the time to examine a haversack (or any article) and taken the time to painstakingly reprodue the item, I wouldn't want some schmuck to come along and reproduce my reproduction. That's essentially stealing the producer's time and knowledge because you didn't want to commit the time to do the research.

Just my .02. Your opinion obviously differs from mine and that's fine.

[markmason]

Re: federal haversack pattern




Hallo! AC Forum rules require that one's avatar image be of oneself and not a graphic, cartoon, or image of someone else. Please edit yours to reflect the actual you. Thank you. Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator

[SGulley]

Re: federal haversack pattern

Nice image Mark!

[Clark Badgett]

Re: federal haversack pattern

James, well let me ask you something. If there are none to be found to examine, and yes many museums are getting to the point where they won't let you see anything up close. Then just how are the heck is some poor college student or working man supposed to get anything any more, he's in a catch 22 can't afford the good stuff, and can't examine any originals. Bet the vendors love that. Why do you think the few that make frocks make over double the cost of materials for their offerings? Not much completiton. You said all repros have flaws that differ from the original, when you meant is to copy a repro cost that maker someone elses money. And to be truthful it ain't very hard to make patterns off original equipment, many have done it and many more will hopefully do so.

[James Masson]

Re: federal haversack pattern

James, well let me ask you something. If there are none to be found to examine, and yes many museums are getting to the point where they won't let you see anything up close. Then just how are the heck is some poor college student or working man supposed to get anything any more, he's in a catch 22 can't afford the good stuff, and can't examine any originals. Bet the vendors love that. Why do you think the few that make frocks make over double the cost of materials for their offerings? Not much completiton. You said all repros have flaws that differ from the original, when you meant is to copy a repro cost that maker someone elses money. And to be truthful it ain't very hard to make patterns off original equipment, many have done it and many more will hopefully do so.

First, I'm a college student that can afford to buy quality stuff. Granted I am learning how to sew and doing my research, viewing originals, etc. Second, the tailors that make quality frocks, make less than minimum wage (about 2-3 bucks per hour). Have you ever sewn a frock? Do you know how much time goes into it? They are not overcharging for their work, by far. I think it's fine for them to try and make a living off and support their families and they should be paid a reasonable amount for their labours. Third, it isn't hard to make patterns off original equipment. Well, that depends on what piece of equipment you're talking about.

Copying a reproduction is NOT correct. It's more than economics thing too. Everyone makes mistakes, even the best reproducers. If you copy that reproducer's mistakes are you making an accurate reproduction?

James

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Re: federal haversack pattern

Hmmm...

Copying a reproduction is a double-edged sword, I think:

One edge: It does not convey the accuracy we are all pursuing. If a person copies a repop complete with it's flaws, that person is letting the innaccuracy multiply, along with adding his/her own. Moreover, who's to say that someone won't copy your copy of a copy? See, it's a horrible cycle that can get out of hand.

Other edge: If one is learning how to sew, attempting basic construction techniques, practicing, etc., then by all means, copying a copy is acceptable. Just remember that true, acceptable, earnest, authentic repops are first generation copies of originals, and nothing can take the place of an item made from an original.

My advice: Call ahead, set aside a weekend, burn up some gas to get to a good museum, and take notes like crazy.

OK, off to Art History... I am humbly,

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: federal haversack pattern

Hallo Herr James!

If you e-mail me off-forum, I will be happy to discuss some drawings and measurements of several original federal haversacks.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Clark Badgett]

Re: federal haversack pattern

Hallo Herr James!

If you e-mail me off-forum, I will be happy to discuss some drawings and measurements of several original federal haversacks.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

As would I, James. I don't plan on making money from the meager amount of info I've gotten over the years, so I don't feel threatened sharing it. I only make things for myself, to keep the cost down of this hobby my wife hates.

[Clark Badgett]

Re: federal haversack pattern

"Have you ever sewn a frock? Do you know how much time goes into it?

James[/QUOTE]


LOL this is rather funny. And since you asked yes I have. Have also sewn a Mobile jacket totally by hand and let me tell you that was by far the hardest piece of clothing I've ever sewn. You see it has a little detail to it that many misidentify as double row of topstitching, well there is only one actual row of topstitching, the other row is whipstitching through 5 layers of material so it looks like topstitching. CS frocks, take longer than US frocks. completely hand sewn SA trowsers take longer and have many more hand stitches than frocks. I have sewn somewhere close to a dozen complete uniforms, including a US overcoat, again another item harder than a frock, broke about 10 needles while making that. I could go on, but I don't really see the need. I can tell you one thing, there are a good many of us that caught the authenticity bug by borrowing a friends accurate repro and copying it. Just about everyone I know has done it at least once.

[James Masson]

Re: federal haversack pattern

"Have you ever sewn a frock? Do you know how much time goes into it?

James

LOL this is rather funny. And since you asked yes I have. Have also sewn a Mobile jacket totally by hand and let me tell you that was by far the hardest piece of clothing I've ever sewn. You see it has a little detail to it that many misidentify as double row of topstitching, well there is only one actual row of topstitching, the other row is whipstitching through 5 layers of material so it looks like topstitching. CS frocks, take longer than US frocks. completely hand sewn SA trowsers take longer and have many more hand stitches than frocks. I have sewn somewhere close to a dozen complete uniforms, including a US overcoat, again another item harder than a frock, broke about 10 needles while making that. I could go on, but I don't really see the need. I can tell you one thing, there are a good many of us that caught the authenticity bug by borrowing a friends accurate repro and copying it. Just about everyone I know has done it at least once.[/QUOTE]

Herr Schmidt,

Thank you very much for the offer but I have no desire to make a reproduction of a Federal Issue Haversack. I was not the original poster. I was just arguing to pros and cons of reproducing a reproduction with Mr. Badgett.

Mr. Badgett,

"I can tell you one thing, there are a good many of us that caught the authenticity bug by borrowing a friends accurate repro and copying it."

Meet your first. I have never copied a reproduction and will never copy a reproduction. Do I sew? Yes, I started last year and whenever I can get in to view an original piece, I do. I have never believed in copying a reproduction for the two simple reasons I stated above. As I said, obviously our opinions differ, which is fine.

[Clark Badgett]

Re: federal haversack pattern

James, I never said copying a repro was a very good method. I totally agree that the best method is looking at the original yourself, and making it from there. The guy asked about where to get a haversack pattern, well there are only three ways to get a pattern of anything. Make one from an original. Buy pattern made from an original. Or copy the repro item someone made from the original. Guess what all the above are just forms of reverse engineering. We are all copying the work of the original maker/developer. Nothing "original" about what we do.

And to address another item you brought up, ain't none of the makers of Federal frock coats that are making them for minimum wage. I remember years ago when that BS started and I remember who started it, and why he did it. I know a lady that can crank one out in about 10 hours start to finish, so by your argument that is $20-30 labor, and do the math. Materials- under $200, labor (by your claim) $30. All the current vendors are businessmen, and if they aren't making a profit from something they ain't gonna waist there time in making it.