What's "oblique"?

[Enfilade]

Dearest Forumites, I have a burning question.

What degree should be "oblique" firing? 1 degrees? 5 degrees? 10 degrees? 25 degrees? 45 degrees? What's the limit? Minimum or maximum? Or is it where the enemy is that we should be aiming? And that being said, in a stand-up fight, while at Battalion strength and usually facing a line of battle, is there anything etched in stone as to deter firings that look like a gun turret on an M-1 Abrahms? Your thoughts?

Mark Berrier

[marine05]

Re: What's "oblique"?

While marching usually 45 degrees.

[poncho]

Re: What's "oblique"?

Dearest Forumites, I have a burning question.

What degree should be "oblique" firing? 1 degrees? 5 degrees? 10 degrees? 25 degrees? 45 degrees? What's the limit? Minimum or maximum? Or is it where the enemy is that we should be aiming? And that being said, in a stand-up fight, while at Battalion strength and usually facing a line of battle, is there anything etched in stone as to deter firings that look like a gun turret on an M-1 Abrahms? Your thoughts?

Mark Berrier

Mark,
What a coincidence as my unit just had a drill last weekend where we went over this. Our captain explained to us that the angle of the oblique should just be a little under 45 degrees. Figure this way, anything more than that and you are really in an awkward stretch that is not very stable. And furthermore if you have to aim at that drastic and angle to hit your enemy, you are already in a world o' hurt. Your commander is supposed to do his job to manuever the unit appropriately to put you in the proper firing position. Some other info to help along is if you refer to the foot positions of the rear rank in an oblique. If you have any experience with this you will know that is already an awkward position and the greater the angle the more impractical a move it is. You can only really oblique to angle of 45 or less without falling over or blowing the guy in front of you's nose off!

[BrianHicks]

Re: What's "oblique"?

For the answer, let's look to the Drill Manuals:

Hardee's states (pp. 54-55, para. 266-272):

Oblique firings.


266. The oblique. firings will be executed to the right and left, and by the same commands as the direct fire, with this single difference - the command aim will always be preceded by the caution, right or left oblique.

Position of the two ranks in the Oblique Fire to the right.

267. At the command ready, the two ranks will execute what has been prescribed for the direct fire.

268. At the cautionary command, right oblique, the two ranks will throw back the right shoulder and look steadily at the object to be hit.

269. At the command, aim, each front rank man will aim to the right without deranging the feet; each rear rank man will advance the left foot about eight inches toward the right heel of the man next on the right of his file leader and aim to the right, in inclining the upper part of the body forward and bending a little the left knee.

Position of the two ranks in the Oblique Fire to the left.

270. At the cautionary command, left oblique, the two ranks will throw back the left shoulder and look steadily at the object to be hit.

271. At the command, aim, the front rank will take aim to the left without deranging the feet; each man in the rear will advance the right foot about eight inches toward the right heel of the man next on the right of his file leader, and aim to the left, inclining the upper part of the body forward and bending a little the right knee,

272. In both cases, at the command, load, the men of each rank will come to the position of load as prescribed in the direct fire; the rear rank men bringing back. the foot which is to the right and front by the side of the other.

Each man will continue to load as if isolated.
----------------

That particular phrase: look steadily at the object to be hit without any referance to degrees or angles, would indicate that there is no limt, Min. or Max. However.... experiance and/or common sense would dictate, if the angle were to great and it were impracticle to bring the weapons to bear on the enemy, then rather than an Oblique firing command, perhaps a Wheel or Right/Left into line movement should be made to bring the weapons onto the target.

[markj]

Re: What's "oblique"?

Greetings,

Oh Lord, we had a massive discussion about this subject just a few months ago, particularly regarding "correct" positioning of pieces and feet by the rear rank while at the left-oblique. Unfortunately, I believe the thread disappeared into cyberspace when the AC forums crashed recently. You might want to check some of the other reenactor forums at other sites, as these also discussed oblique firing at the same time.

Folks like Jim Ruley have put forth well-reasoned arguments supporting placement of the piece over the right shoulders of file leaders (even at the left-oblique). Unfortunately for this view the only independent, wartime documentation that has come to light so far (discovered by "yours truly" in the May 1865 "United States Service Magazine" and discussed in a recent issue of "The Watchdog") plainly states that pieces at the left-oblique were to be placed over the LEFT shoulder of file leaders.

Having said this, Jim Ruley points out that the precise ANGLE of "oblique" was variable depending on circumstances. I should also mention that a review of the "Official Records" indicates that, as often as not, oblique fires were conducted not as battalion fires but, rather, by individual companies on one or both wings!

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[CaptainUCSB]

Re: What's "oblique"?

The "Degrees" are unspecified in the manual.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: What's "oblique"?

I agree with Patrick, the degree is the position of your intendended target(s).
It is a variable.

[Ambrose Bierce]

Re: What's "oblique"?

Mark,

While I see that many have posted about the varying targets, degrees, etc., and that these are not specified, the obliques should be at about 15-20 degrees. Essentially, the head is turned so that the right eye in left oblique firing would be in line with the buttons of the coat. The opposite is true of right oblique. Not much of an angle, really, and it can be improved upon if necessary. I suggest buying a copy of Hardees or Casey's drill manuals to give you the exact positioning and description of conducting this.

Hope this helps.

Ivan F. Ingraham

[CaptainUCSB]

Re: What's "oblique"?

Mark,

the obliques should be at about 15-20 degrees. Essentially, the head is turned so that the right eye in left oblique firing would be in line with the buttons of the coat. The opposite is true of right oblique.

Ivan F. Ingraham

That isnt in the manual either. That is a reenactorism. The manual does not state this at all, but rather tells the soldier to throw back his shoulder and look at the target object in each direction depending on the order. There are no exact positions given.

[Silas]

Reenactorism? Yes and no.

Well Captain Gaucho, you're right, but you're wrong. There is a basis for the eye balls and buttons claim. According to Revised Hardee's:

80. The instructor having given the recruit the position of the soldier, without arms, will now teach him the turning of the head and eyes. He will command:

1. Eyes- RIGHT 2. FRONT.

81. At the word right, the recruit will turn the head gently, so as to bring the inner corner of the left eye in a line with the buttons of the coat, the eyes fixed on the line of the eyes of the men in, or supposed to he in, the same rank.

82. At the second command the head will resume the direct or habitual position.

83. The movement of Eyes - LEFT will be executed by inverse means.

84. The instructor will take particular care that the movement of the head does not derange the squareness of the shoulders, which will happen if the movement of the former be too sudden.

85. When the instructor shall wish the recruit to pass from the state of attention to that of ease, he will command:

REST.

86. To cause a resumption of the habitual position, the instructor will command:

1. Attention. 2. SQUAD.

87. At the first word, the recruit will fix his attention; at the second, he will resume the prescribed position and steadiness.

You'll find the same language in Casey's School of the Soldier beginning at paragraph 87.

I agree with you that the eyes/buttons paragraphs do not apply to oblique firings. The above language comes from the first lessons taught to recruits about aligning themselves with others. To apply this language to oblique firings is a misapplication of rules for one topic upon an unrelated topic. A reenactorism? That's pretty strong language.

On a similar oblique topic, we had a march this weekend and during one of our stops, we went over stacking arms via Scott and via Revised Hardee's. We also addressed oblique firings. I quoted Cooper's manual for the technique, and we found it superior and safer than the methods detailed in Hardee's and Casey's when applied to the left shoulder. Because someone's going to ask what it is, I've quoted it:

Cooper: Position of the Ranks in the Oblique Firings to the Left.

301. At the word READY, both ranks will execute what has been pre*scribed for lhe direct fire.

302. At time word AIM, the front rank man will direct his firelock to the left, inclining the left knee, without moving the feet.

303. The rear rank man shall advance the left foot about six inches, and towards the right heel of the front rank man on the left of his file; and shall also advance the upper part of the body, bending the left knee, and aim through the interval to the left of the front rank man of his file.

304. Both ranks shall throw back the left shoulder.

As odd as it sounds, it was more comfortable than moving the right foot and trying to aim through the right interval as noted in Casey (SoC 280) and Revised Hardee (SoC 270):

At the command aim, the front rank will take aim to the left without deranging the feet; each man in the rear rank will advance the right foot, about eight inches toward the right heel of the man next on the right of his file leader, and aim to the left, inclining the upper part of the body forward, and bending a little the right knee.

Mark (Silas) Tackitt
CHAPs

P.S. Go Bears.

[justthemiller]

Re: What's "oblique"?

I'm with Ivan on this one,

Although it's not specified in any of the manuals for school of the company. If one performs the foot, upper body and other movements as per the manuals you will only be firing on an oblique of no more than 20 degrees. Any more and you are not performing the steps as put down in the various manuals properly. Also, if your company needs to shoot at an object that is coming in at an angle over 20 degrees, then the company commander needs to change the front of the company to meet that threat.

[flattop32355]

Re: What's "oblique"?

Mr. Jim Ruley has requested that I convey a post of clarification on this subject in his stead, as he is not a member of these fora:

"Regarding Mr. Jaeger's post, it is not I who pointed out that the precise ANGLE of 'oblique' was variable depending on circumstances. It was Winfield Scott. Here is what he says in his 1835 'Infantry Tactics':

Remarks on the Oblique Firings:
287. Throw back a shoulder in taking aim. In order to be able to direct the sight more or less obliquely (emphasis added) , according to the position of the object aimed at.

288. The instructor will render this principle practically intelligible to recruits by placing a man in front, more or less to the right (or left) (emphasis added) to represent such object, when they will fully comprehend the joinery , or mechanism of the oblique firings.

(Winfield Scott, 'Infantry Tactics', New York: Harper and Brothers, Publishers, Franklin Square, 1861 Vol.1, Title II, 287-288)

Regarding Mr. Jaeger's 'United States Service Magazine' snippet, all it really does is illustrate the pitfalls of depending too much on isolated sources. Interested readers who want 'the rest of the story' should check out my article in the Fall 2003 issue of 'The Watchdog'.

Regards,

Jim Ruley"

[Rob Weber]

Re: What's "oblique"?

It has been my feeling that when deciding how many degrees the oblique firing should be (since it is not stated in the manual) that it might be fair to consider the degree in which you turn back your shoulders while marching by the oblique. Again it does not state what degree that should be either but it does state where your shoulder should be. If I were to guess, and I am, I would say that this is somewhere in the vicinity of about 20 degrees. If a target required anything more than that, as previously stated, it would require the company comander to adjust the line.

Thanks,
Rob Weber