Texas Brigade Frock Coat

[brobby05]

Hey Fellas,

Does anybody have any historical info on the Texas Brigade frock coat issued in early war? I checked at the Museum of the Confederacy and they don't have any information on it. There's Troiani's print but it is just a print. I want historically based information to possibly have it made in the future.

Thanks,

Larry Kitner, Pres.
72nd PA, Co. K

[VA-Patriot'61]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

There was no standard issue frock coat for the Texas Brigade I'm aware of considering they all came separately by company or small battalion size groups to Virginia and were formed later in Richmond into regiments. Is this for a one time impression to be a part of the "Cornfield" scenario next year at Sharpsburg?

If you're going to represent such a Brigade you need to do more than just reproduce the uniform. They were a unique set of soldiers from a vastly different area than the rest of the ANV. There are several Texas Brigade members here as well as many others from units representing Hood's Brigade across the US, I'm sure some of them will belly up to the table to share what they know.

"I want historically based information..." as opposed to?

[Regimental Colours]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

Are you researching a specific unit of the Texas Brigade? There are the well known 1st Texas Volunteer Infantry’s “Camp Quantico" photographs taken in the Winter of 1861-1862. I suggest you do a Google search on this (i.e. Wigfall Mess and The Beauregard Mess).

[Regimental Colours]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

You may want to look at this old thread on the 4th Texas:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?25338-Two-4th-Texas-images&highlight=Giles

[Regimental Colours]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

Larry, you might find this old article on the 'Lost Camp' of interest. It also contains two photographs of the 1st Texas taken at Camp Quantico.

https://billriski.backpackit.com/pub/1707764

[Valverde viejo loco]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

I would try to contact Don Smith. He's the man when it comes to Texas related information. If anything he can at least give you further places to look. Good luck!

[cwpilgrim]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

There was no standard frock for Texans.
While most went with the AOT, others (such as the 1st. 4th, 5th) went with the ANV and were Hoods Texans. So, you have opened up quite a can of worms.

There are a few resources which describe some of the appearances of them at different times. So,
A number of resources are available via memoirs (such as 5th TX Val Giles 'Rags and Hope', Fletcher's Rebel Private front and Rear, Polley's Texas Brigade, Simpson's works, and others.

There are a number of photos taken of Texans in frocks, or longer jackets, but the pic's I have seen were take before they were subjected to the fatigue of war and the uniform shredded. The pictures I have seen, they all had dark trim around them. With those who went to VA, trim colors varied depending on which company you were with. 4th TX co. B had Black trim, CO. E had Blue, etc. There are not many photo's of them that I know of.

So, unless you nail down exactly what you need for a very specific time and place, consider leaning towards a very generic frock for early CS for cost effectiveness, and usefulness in both theatres. You can always add trim or whatever later if the impression requires it.

I looked at doing that at one point myself (having a Texas Frock made). But found the devil was in the details, i.e. buttons. For instance, Capt Ripley (Co E 4th TX, had gone to New York to have buttons made for what was known as the 'Lone Star Guard'). The buttons had LSG on them. They looked great marching out of Texas enroute to VA. But, by the time they had finally arrived, there uniforms were in tatters.

So, what good was my detailed 4th TX frock had I been able to complete it? It was basically destroyed before they fired a shot at something besides alligators in LA swamps on the way to join the ANV!

In the descriptions I had read, the trousers were made of the same material, so I think you will need matching trousers as well.

Best of luck on your quest.

[AZFarrier]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

Larry
In John Taylor’s book, Bloody Val Verde, a Civil War Battle on the Rio Grande; there was an account of the Sibley Brigade by Roe “Recitals and Reminiscences”. It says “They had shoes and boots of all different types, socks of all colors, either grey woolen or woolen plaid jeans, single or double breasted coats, and head gear that ranged from wide-brimmed brown or black felt hats to simple colored handkerchiefs “. (Page 24)
The Sibley Brigade was formed in Late October 1861 in San Antonio TX. The Brigade was made up of the 4th, 5th, and 7th Texas Mounted Rifles. Additionally Captain TT Teels Battery and a Battalion of the 2nd Texas Mounted Rifles (already in southern New Mexico / Arizona territory) made up the final elements of the invasion of New Mexico.
Another good version of an early war frock coat is in the Echoes of Glory, Arms and Equipment of the Confederacy, (Page 113). Captain William Cleaver’s frock coat from the 7th Texas Mounted Rifles is shown. He was killed in July 1862 around Mesilla NM (Arizona Territory).
Hope this helps

[Regimental Colours]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

At the moment I'm having trouble downloading photographs. Here are the links to two 1st Texas photographs taken at Camp Quantico during the Winter of 1861-1862. All show frock coats being worn.

https://billriski.backpackit.com/assets/2535527/as/Wigfall_Mess%20(Miller's%20Photographic%20Hist,%201911).jpg

https://billriski.backpackit.com/assets/2535529/as/1st%20Texas%20Camp%20Quantico%20(Rosenberg%20Library%20Collection).jpg

[brobby05]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

I'm sorry that I wasn't more specific...I'm looking at the 1st Texas, ANV. I know of the Quantico pics and I have the books by Polley and Simpson. They weren't real specific on the details of the frock coat and trowsers. I know of the dark cuffs, but was it black or blue? I hope this helps in research.

Thanks,

Larry Kitner
72nd PA, Co. K

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

Hallo!

Just to add the usual caveat about time and lace...

But also, when it comes to the 1861 early 1862 Texas Brigade still under the Commutation System, IMHO it is important to look at the "uniqueness" of its companies on a company-by-company basis rather than as uniform uniformed regiments.

Oh, off the top of my head, there is the image of the Felder brothers of Company "E," 5th Texas in untrimmed dress coats but Rhodes Stephens of the same company, wearing something with flat dark color trim. Or the Brown brothers (Lycurgus died Dec, 27, 1861 at Dumfries) in Company "A," of the 4th Texas in untrimmed dress coats with no shoulder "tabs," while Giles in Company "B" is wearing a dress coat trimmed at the collar, shoulder tabs, and cuffs with black braid (made by a donation of cloth from the citizens of Austin and sewn by a local tailor there).

Or more 1st Texas specific, off the top of my head... there is Edward Currie of Company "I," 1st Texas wearing a battle shirt. There is an image of the five Oliver brothers and 3rd Lt. Cartright of Company "D," 1st Texas (Star Rfiles) in their "Hardee" type tall hats, but wearing jackets with dark likely black herringbone braid and dark collars and cuffs.
And then in the famous winter 1861/1862 Camp Quantico images from Dumfries that shows Company "D," 1st Texas men in their dress coats, which conflicts with the earlier picture of Olivers unless the frock/dress coats were a later "issuance" for Company "D" than the herringbone trimmed jackets?
It slips my mind at the moment and I do not have Simpson's book handy, but there is a third image in the Qquantico series that shows a Company "D," 1st Texas (?) lad still wearing the herringbone trimmed jacket, holding a skillet. (The one with the men with buckets, broom, axe, and $8 "tolerably good greatcoats with capes on them.")

And last, there is a discussion or argument over the color of the collars and cuffs of Company "D," 1st Texas as black or blue. Initially, aside from teh high hats... they also wore either Federal or a copy of the federal fatigue cap in dark blue. This leads some lads to make the same tonal and contrast in the images, thinking the dress coats were dark blue trimmed instead of black. On the other hand, the caps might have been... black themselves.

;) :)

Tis complicated....

Curt

[Secesh]

Re: Texas Brigade Frock Coat

What specific period of time are you looking at?? At the beginning of the War each of the companies marched off wearing uniforms specific to their company unit. If you are seeking a "one size fits all" you are going to miss the mark. Company A. 1st Texas, was clad differently than say Company E....If you are looking at a Cornfield scenario keep in mind that Sharpsburg was a full 13 months after the 1st Texas arrived in Virginia...even longer since they left Texas in their various uniforms. By this time the Commutation system was in effect and it's probable they were wearing a hodge podge of uniforms. For example, look at the dead of Stark's brigade at Sharpsburg...Louisianan's for the most part were well uniformed when they marched off to War, yet no two of the dead are dressed aike, and one can see frocks, shell jackets, and even what appears to be a sack coat...Just my 2 cents...btw...J.B. Polley, 4th Texas Infantry, states in his memoirs "Hood's Texas Brigade", that shortly after Gaines' Mill, on July 10, the Texas Brigade received letters from home and were issued clothing from the Federal supplies they had captured. Regrettably he doesn't mention specifically what this clothing was...