cartrige rollin'

[37NC]

Pards:
We hava already had the conversation on rolling athentic cartrige rounds. My question is what is every one using inside to represent the bullet, if any thing. I was thinking toilet paper or cotton balls, but will they become a projectile if placed in the barrel or will they just burn up.

thank you for your insite


sgt. Daniel Curran
37th NC Co. A

[Will Eichler]

Re: cartrige rollin'

Daniel,

Up here in Michigan, most guys I know use cotton balls. I'm playing around with toilet paper to see if I can roll it in a shape that will more correctly approximate the elongated ball.

As to putting it down the barrel, the ABSOLUTE RULE here is to NEVER put anything down the barrel except powder. Anything else is a danger, either as a projectile or a potential fire starter. Having put several fires out in my 15 years at this, I advise you to not let your men put anything else in the barrel.

Good luck.

Will

[GeraldTodd]

Re: cartrige rollin'

When loading a musket cartridge I didn't think the cartridge and wad got loaded, usually, just the powder? In my musket cartridges I have normally used TP to make up the space of the ball.

More often I use a carbine and revolver and have used paper wads, including TP and newsprint, ever since cavepaintings were in vogue.

Many Sharp's carbine/rifle users make cartridges with wads to get the length of a live cartridge so it'll fit the length of the chamber better. TP is the common choice for this, but another option is Cream of Wheat. It's granular and even if wetted and dried into a clump, will blast into dust.

CoW's been the wad of choice in revolvers for the last few years. CoW is almost inert, so embers aren't a problem. CoW's also got a little weight to it, nothing anywhere close to lead, but significantly more than a wad of TP. It's different handling cartridges with some weight to them.

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Re: cartrige rollin'

Hi There!

I don't use anthing to simulate a projectile. The reason I jam between 1/2 and 1/4 of a cotton ball in my tube is to ensure that if the bottom becomes undone, it will ensure that powder doesn't get spilled everywhere. Plus it helps the tube maintain it's shape while in storage.

IMHO, There is no way to accurately and safely simulate a projectile on/in the individual cartridge. Anything even remotely close to the weight of a lead missile would be too dangerous to be playing with at the muzzle of your weapon while loading. I am in earnest,

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: cartrige rollin'

Another thought:

Are you talking about loading at reenactments, or Living History type events?

I have done several Living History type events, or helped in Veteran Marker ceremonies, and they have us "ram paper" for better effect. Now, these type events where I rammed paper down the barrel, were events we were NOT shooting at/towards anyone!

Now, I have actually demonstrated the different loading steps using American style ammo, and British Enfield type cartridges. The British style, you tear the top off the cartridge and then pour the powder down the barrel. Then you turn the cartridge over, place the bottom waxed portion of the cartidge into the muzzle (bullet end), break off the upper section and discard. Then ram down the "bullet" end. Brits ammo were bass ackwards to American style. They used 4 separate papers for their ammo, American style used 2.

If your demonstrating loading, it is good to be able to load like they did the originals. Having that paper to ram down helps with the simulation, just dumping powder kills the scenario. Just be carefull that your "cartridge" isn't too big, and gets STUCK half way down the barrel, happend to me once! :cry_smile

For the type of cartridge your talking about, I use 3-4 sheets of TP to form the bullet. (Depends on thickness of your TP!
I can tell you from past experience, that having a cartridge box full of actual size ammo is great to look at, and show off. I find they are easier to grab and load, than the paper tube with just powder in them!

I have even learned how to make great looking Ball, Buck-n-ball rounds for the times I borrowed a 42 Musket for LH.
Respectfully:

Kevin Dally
PS. It takes me 1-1/2 hours to cut, roll, form,tie, wax & stuff 10 of those Enfield cartridges I make, so I use them for special occasions!

[tomarch]

Re: cartrige rollin'

Actualy, the army did have specs for the construction of blank rounds. Why not just use what U.S.Army Ordinance had already approved?

[37NC]

Re: cartrige rollin'

thanks for all your help

Sgt. Daniel Curran
37th NC co A

[Blum]

Re: cartrige rollin'

"Actualy, the army did have specs for the construction of blank rounds. Why not just use what U.S.Army Ordinance had already approved?"

Because authentics blanks rounds don't looking like authentics live rounds !
And cw soldiers used of course live rounds ! ;)

[10TnVI]

Re: cartrige rollin'

Actually, Mr. Dally, American rounds used three pieces of paper, a large trapazoid outer wrapper, a smaller trapizoid inner wrapper for the powder cylinder, and a 1 inch by 2 inch stiffener for the powder cylinder made of "No. 4" or "Rocket" paper.

Mr. Curran- for simulating the space taken up in a cartridge by the bullet, I use a sheet of 2 ply toliet paper folded and rolled. It compares well in length with the cartridges I made up using lead minies. I have rammed the paper and discharged it. The paper residue drops to earth about 15-20 feet in front of the muzzel and is usually pretty 'fluffed up'.

[Dreamer42]

Re: cartrige rollin'

I side with using a full length "live" cartridge with paper wading to look like a bullet. Easier to grab, and I agree, the soldier's rounds would have been a "cartridge", not a "blank." I use half a sheet of kleenex folded three times, then rolled into a cylinder, then cramed onto the powder. It fills the space well, and looks the sime size as my live rounds. Besides, I have the option of using the tubes for blanks or live, don't have to make a separate one for each.

Jay Reid
9th Tx.

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: cartrige rollin'

"Actually, Mr. Dally, American rounds used three pieces of paper, a large trapazoid outer wrapper, a smaller trapizoid inner wrapper for the powder cylinder, and a 1 inch by 2 inch stiffener for the powder cylinder made of "No. 4" or "Rocket" paper."

A good point! I asked Geoff Walden about that "stiffener" paper, and he said they dropped that by the time of the WBTS. I think the 1861 Ordnance Manual specified 2 papers for cartridge construction.
In my Ready...Aim...Fire! book by Dean S. Thomas, page 9 has a cartridge that has been dismantled. It showing the powder cylinder tied at one end, and shoved up inside the hollow of the bullet. An outer wrapper is shown separate.
Respectfully:

Kevin Dally

[Adjutant]

Re: cartrige rollin'

The number of pieces of paper depends upon the style of cartridge. There were three different types of US cartridge used at various point during the war. The most common was the two paper method most of us are familiar with. If I remember correctly this method was adopted in 1861. Some arsenals (St. Louis and Allegheny I think) continued using the older method with the "rocket paper" or a modified version with the smaller powder chamber but no rocket paper inside. When I roll my rounds I tend to use toilet paper. If you roll a rectangular piece on a slight slant you get a pointed object with a hollow base, just like a Minnie' ball. I would imagine cotton balls would be best for roundball ammunition. If you really want a good source for making nice reproduction rounds I cannot recommend the Columbia Rifles Research Compendium highly enough. It has an excellent article on making repop rounds. I double check this and try to post more information tonight. I remain...

[Tyler Underwood]

Re: cartrige rollin'

Mr. Todd, Confederate regulations stated that when loading your Rifle you rammed the entire cartrige, federal regulations you did not. After pouring the powder you gave the round a sharp strike across the muzzle to break the paper at the base of the bullet and pinched it into the barrel. But of course as Mr. Eichler stated there is always the chance of a fire by putting the paper down the barrel. When I make rounds I have a wooden dowel that is in the shape of a minie ball at one end. And I usually use a half sheet of kleenex and it takes the shape and size of a ball quite well. Of course this all takes a good amont of time. Hope this helps, and happy rollin.

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: cartrige rollin'

Mr. Todd, Confederate regulations stated that when loading your Rifle you rammed the entire cartrige, federal regulations you did not. After pouring the powder you gave the round a sharp strike across the muzzle to break the paper at the base of the bullet and pinched it into the barrel. But of course as Mr. Eichler stated there is always the chance of a fire by putting the paper down the barrel. When I make rounds I have a wooden dowel that is in the shape of a minie ball at one end. And I usually use a half sheet of kleenex and it takes the shape and size of a ball quite well. Of course this all takes a good amont of time. Hope this helps, and happy rollin.

From Casey's:

""4. Charge-CARTRIDGE.
One time and one motion.

166. Empty the powder into the barrel: disengage the ball from the paper with the right hand and the thumb and first two fingers of the left; insert it into the bore, the pointed end uppermost, and press it down with the right thumb; seize the head of the rammer with the thumb and fore-finger of the right hand, the other fingers closed, the elbows near the body. ""

I see nothing about a "Sharp strike"... where are you getting that from ?

[Yellowhammer]

Re: cartrige rollin'

"Confederate regulations stated that when loading your Rifle you rammed the entire cartrige, federal regulations you did not. After pouring the powder you gave the round a sharp strike across the muzzle to break the paper at the base of the bullet and pinched it into the barrel."

Since both the US and CS Regulation do not concern themselves with loading, I assume you mean this can be found in the tactics manuals. Actually, the major US and CS manuals indicate the ball should be disengaged from the paper but I'm unable to find a source for the "sharp strike" you mention

Here is what the main manuals say on the subject:

Gilham's:

"153. Empty the powder into the barrel; disengage the ball from the paper with the right hand and the thumb and first two fingers of the left; insert it into the bore, the pointed end uppermost, and press it down with the right thumb; seize the head of the rammer with the thumb and fore-finger of the right hand, the other fingers closed, the elbows near the body."

Hardee's:

"59. Empty the powder into the barrel; disengage the ball from the paper with the right hand and the thumb and first two fingers of the left; insert it into the bore, the pointed end uppermost, and press it down with the right thumb; seize the head of the rammer with the thumb and fore-finger of the right hand, the other fingers closed, the elbows near the body."

Hardee's Revised (1862):
"159. Empty the powder into the barrel; disengage the ball from the paper with the right hand and the thumb and first two fingers of the left; insert it into the bore, the pointed end uppermost, and press it down with the right thumb; seize the head of the rammer with the thumb and fore-finger of the right hand, the other fingers closed, the elbows near the body."

Casey's:

"159. Empty the powder into the barrel: disengage the ball from the paper with the right hand and the thumb and first two fingers of the left; insert it into the bore, the pointed end uppermost, and press it down with the right thumb; seize the head of the rammer with the thumb and fore-finger of the right hand, the other fingers closed, the elbows near the body.

Getting into the less common manuals, Baxter's manual seems to indicate the paper should be rammed down with the ball but there is still no "sharp strike."

Baxter's:

Fix the eye on the muzzle, turn quickly the back of the right hand towards the body, in order to discharge the powder into the barrel, raise the elbow to the height of the wrist, shake the cartridge, force it into the muzzle and leave the hand reversed, the fingers extended, the thumb extended along the barrel. (Fig. 78)

Lee's Manual, another early manual designed for volunteers and described by the author as an "abridgement of Hardee's," uses identical language:

Lee's:

"149. Fix the eye on the muzzle, turn quickly the back of the hand towards the body, in order to discharge the powder into the barrel, raise the elbow to the height of the wrist, shake the cartridge, force it into the muzzle and leave the hand reversed, the fingers extended, the thumb extended along the barrel."

Interestingly, both Lee and Baxter use language very similar to that used by Scott in his "Load in Twelve Times" which was, of course, for use with flintlock muskets.

Scott's:

"2OO. Fix the eye on the muzzle, turn quickly the back of the right hand towards the body, in order to discharge the powder into the barrel, raise the elbow to the height of the wrist, shake the cartridge, force it into the muzzle, and leave the hand reversed, the fingers closed, but not clenched."

In any case, "sharp strikes" aside, it appears to me that the practice of removing the cartridge paper and not ramming it during the load was the preferred method during the war. It is very likely a potentially significant amount of early volunteer units were drilled to ram the paper as well but I'm sure this was increasingly out of favor as drill became more and more standardized.