P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

[tjdull]

In an effort to get more out of my hobby, I research joining my local unit of the N-SSA. I would really like to live fire my 1861 Springfield on a regular basis in a competitive shooting environment. The N-SSA seemed to be just the ticket.

However, I was deeply disappointed to find out the local unit, 19th Indiana – Iron Brigade, only uses 2 banded rifle-muskets … such as the P58 Enfield … for competitive shooting. The reason is obvious; the N-SSA competition is based on time … highest number of targets hit in the shortest amount of time wins.

The P58, having a shorter barrel, re-loads faster. So, my 1861 Springfield is out. While I can use it, I will never be chosen as a shooter for the team because of my slower re-load time.

So, my question comes down to this, were P58 Enfield's a common shoulder arm in Federal Volunteer Infantry Units during the Civil War?

The information I have been able to find says there was a ratio of 7 (P53’s) : 1 (P58’s) … which makes the P58’s downright scarce in my book.y

Thanks,
Terry

[JimKindred]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Historical fact has never been a strong concern of the NSSA. Competition and what was actually done are two completely different worlds.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Hallo!

Is my old 19th Indiana pal Phil S. out there? :)

Unless it is a 19th IN unit requirement that its members only use "Two Banders." IMHO it will not matter much.
The reason is, as you may know but others may not.. in the N-SSA most units set their eight man teams on the basis of "Hit Times." A "Hit Time" is the number of seconds it takes you to hit a target. Since one shoots against a clock, the amount of time it takes to clear the targeting divided by the numer of your hits is your Hit Time.

For example.... if in an event (set of targets), I hit four and the team's elapsed time is two minutes, that is 120 seconds divided by four or a Hit Time of
30. If in the same event, you hit two, that is 120 seconds divided by two hits or a HT of 60 seconds.
Each man has a HT, and ranked accordingly 1-8 or 9-16. (or for larger units, 17-24.)

Since speed of loading figures into the equation, most "medal winning" teams will have Skirmishers in the low 20's and nearby.

In 17 years of competing, and placing in team and individuals, I used a "Three Bander" most of the time. In two minutes I would NUG fire 6-7 well aimed shots. With a "Two Bander" rifle, 7-8. With a "Two Bander" artillery-rifle, 8-9.

IMHO, in most of the 16 breakable targeting events, since the eight man team starts out loaded and primed when the "whistle blows," the difference between a 3 Bander and a 2 Bander user's rate of fire for competitive teams is somewhat "academic."

But as Herr Jim has shared, this discussion is apples and oranges.

Curt

[Silas]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Historical fact has never been a strong concern of the NSSA. Competition and what was actually done are two completely different worlds.

I often feel that way about reenacting in general.

[Matt Woodburn]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Terry,

I don't participate in the NSSA so don't know if this is an option, but...see if you can be the pioneer in the NSSA that starts a "3 band only/minimum barrel length" category for competition. I don't know what their awards are, but it only takes some wacko like myself to put up a significant enough prize that makes the new category so attractive, that everyone jumps ship and wants to participate in your new category. I can hear it now, "Heck with the NSSA trophy and the $100 gift card, that Terry guy raised $1000 for the best 3 band shooter. I'm getting in on that Terry guy's category." Ta-da! You just messed with them enough to change their hobby!

[tjdull]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Thanks so far everyone ... but can we stay on the topic of my question ...

2 banded rifled muskets ... common in the ACW?

And yes ... Phil S. is my N-SSA contact!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Hallo!

Define... "common."

They are very common if one was in a unit that was rifle armed. They ar enot so comon if one wa sin a unit that was rifle-musket, rifled-musket, or musket armed.

I think what you are asking is the numerical difference between the numbers of imported and domestic manufactured rifle-muskets rifled-muskets or muskets versus the numbers of imported and domestic manufactured rilfes.
Yes, the numbers will show that the "long barrelled' arms dominated over the "short barrelled" arms.

On the other hand, some claim the use of a Universal when it comes to the P1858 Naval Rifle reproductions. There were none of those used in the CW, as the reproduction is an attempt to make a P1858 Naval Rifle by fiddling with shortening a P1853 4th Model Rifle Musket, beefing up the barrel and rifling grooves, and saying it is close enough to the P1858 Naval Rifle to be one.
Regarding the originals, it can be tricky to count as CW period "accounting" make sit hard to tell if the recordfer was talkiong aobut the Pattern 1856 Short Rifle, the Pattern 1858 Naval Rifle, the Pattern 1858 Short Rifle (aka P1856 No. 2), or the Pattern 1860 Short Rifle. For exapler, U.S. Ordnance often listed them as "Rifles, Enfield, saber bayonet, caliber .577." Or purchaisng records saying just "Short Enfield Rifles, saber bayonets.

But if surviving originals might be a clue, the most commonly found is the P1856 Short Rifle.

Curt

[Jimmayo]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

[QUOTE=tjdull;222035]

However, I was deeply disappointed to find out the local unit, 19th Indiana – Iron Brigade, only uses 2 banded rifle-muskets … such as the P58 Enfield … .
/QUOTE]

How about a nice Austrian Lorenz or M-1841. Both were IMO more common in the Federal ranks than the two band Enfield be it a P-56 or P-58. Hardly anyone knows the difference between the P-56 and the P-58 Army/Navy anyway.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Hallo!

There may be some N-SSA teams that regulate what firearms they want/allow, but I never knew of any. Each lad was (is) free to shoot any SAC Approved custom-built, commercially mass prodcued, or arms with swapped competiton barrels as he chooses. Or original for that matter.

In Ye Way Back Daze, I recall a number of custom-built M1855 Rifles in teh ranks of the N-SSA's 6th Wisconsin, but I could not say how many.

There were also a number of lads who competitvely disliked the length of a RM and its "slowness," and disliked the weight of a R, and so went with the shortened RM aka "artillery rifle" (Two Bander) for lightness and speed.

Curt

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

The Enfield rifle was issued to some Federal forces (i.e. 45th IL, New York State Militia, etc. . .), but compared to other weapons as the M1853 Enfield Rifle Musket or Lorenz Rifle the numbers of issued weapons would be small. Confederate forces also imported the Enfield Rifle, with these showing up in a much wider range of regiments in the field.


All the best,

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Terry,

The Enfield rifle (what many call the two bander today) was not issued interchangeably with the rifle-muskets such as the P53 Enfield and 1861 Springfield. Especially when discussing federal units, in general it was only special units that received the short rifle in lieu of the rifle musket. In British service the short rifle was intended for use by file closers and in rifle regiments (as well as on board ships), whereas the privates and corporals in the line carried the rifle-musket. This basic pattern was followed by the US army, and also roughly adhered to in the CS army, especially as the war progressed with rifles being culled from the ranks of line infantry regiments and handed over to special sharpshooter units.

Bottom line: the Enfield rifle would be appropriate for only a very small number of specific Federal soldier impressions. I hope this helps clear things up.

[tjdull]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

The Enfield rifle was issued to some Federal forces (i.e. 45th IL, New York State Militia, etc. . .), but compared to other weapons as the M1853 Enfield Rifle Musket or Lorenz Rifle the numbers of issued weapons would be small. Confederate forces also imported the Enfield Rifle, with these showing up in a much wider range of regiments in the field.

All the best,

Yes, that confirms what I have found too ... Thank you.

As I have come to discover, many N-SSA competitors try and use 33” barrel length “rifles” … the M1841 Mississippi seems a popular model. As it is a timed competition, this only makes sense … shorter barrels re-load faster, equating to more rounds heading down range to break more targets = a win!

I’m just disappointed that they combine the “short” rifle muskets (ie rifles) and the “long” rifle muskets in the same category. With the 1853 Enfield and the 1861 Springfield making up the largest numbers of shoulder arms during the Civil War, I had hoped otherwise.

Thanks for all your input, it was very helpful.

[pipthelimey]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Dan,
I'm doing some research on different models of "two band Enfield Rifles" and while I'm familiar with the British practice of issuing rifles to certain ranks and roles, but your quote about this practice being mimicked in the Confederate ranks interested me. Can you point me in the direction of where you came to this conclusion? My impression was that while I'm sure soldiers had personal preferences that there was no logistical master plan to issue certain sized weapons to certain roles.

[Jimmayo]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Andrew: Suggest you read "Shock Troops of the Confederacy" by Fred Ray. It talks about the use of the Enfield short rifles by the sharpshooters and how they got first pick of the available rifles. There are also several other books about individual CS sharpshooter battalions that touch on that subject.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: P58 Enfield and the N-SSA

Hallo!

In brief and to over-generalize...

The largest and most "general," at least early on in the War, was the fairly common US and CS practice that was a carryover from the 18th century- that of a regiment being eight companies of musketmen, one of light infantry, and one of grenadiers
That evolved to where the two "flank companies" became rifle-armed "skirmishers."

So what one often sees are 1861/1862ish regiments that are armed with eight companies of muskets, and two of rifles. By and large, that was slowly phased out as production or import of rifle-muskets allowed for more and more all RM armed regiments and tactics changed to where any of the ten companies could serve as skirmishers as needed.

Curt