Dimick Target Rifles- information/pictures needed

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Dimick Target Rifles- information/pictures needed

Hallo!

Just to split a few historical hairs... ;) :) :)

Jacob Hawken had died in the St. Louis cholera epidemic of the spring of 1848.

Samuel went into semi-retirement in 1855. Son William and Tristam Campbell ran it for him.

Samuel sold the business to son William Hawken in 1858.

William sold the business to William Watt and William Bennett in 1860.

J.P. Gemmer buys the business from Watt & partners in 1865. Gemmer tries to keep things going after the Civil War, and plays with merging surplus breechloaders into the Hawken rifle such as Spencer or Trapdoor until the new generation of high powdered cartridges came out.

As with Dimick, they employed a number of gunmakers, so rifles made in the Hawken shop varied widely in construction details as they made guns to customer order, so while they have a "brand" it is not the "classic" 1850's Samuel Hawken half stock that became the Hobby's standard conception of a "Hawken Rifle" until very late. Even Sam like to fiddle. For example, he liked Tennesee style cheek pieces when using the classic Hawken beaver tail form.

Granted, starting in the 1850's there is far less deviation from the theme as there had been previously as a somewhat "set pattern" evolved due to the adoption of cast parts and commercial parts where previously they had been hand-made or in house/local. So, having to build guns to more standardized parts, their gunmakers could only fiddle slightly with decoration like engraving, inlays, patchboxes, or how they shaped the cheek pieces.


Hobby-wise...

In brief, and to over generalize.... there are four basic streams for "Hawkens."

The first is the commercial Thompson-Center "Hawken" half stock which is not very S. Hawken-like other than it is.. a half stock. That was replicated in severa froms by the Italians. (Sometimes knicknamed "Hawkin" or "Hawkins" rifles because they are not much like Hawken rifles.)

The second is based on the commercial Bud Brown/Cherry Corners late S. Hawken half stock that evolved through Ithaca, then Navy Arms, then an Uberti version offered to American businesses known as the "Santa Fe Hawken," and is still basically around made/sold by Pedersoli.

The third is a parts/component set (aka "kit") version of Kit Carson's and Jim Bridger's Hawken half stocks sold by TRACK OF THE WOLF.

The fourth is custom-built J. & S. Hawken full stocks, or S. Hawken half stocks.

Herr John's advice on Ohio Rifles is an excellent alternative, especially if one is willing to restore one from its antique/relic condition to its CW appearance, or find one "good enough" to be used as is.

Ohio Rifles can be deer rifles or target rifles in half or full stock. As a result, some of the "deer rifles" can have smallish bores in the .30-.40 range. While the target rifles can be in the .40-.45 range but may have heavy "bench" type target barrels (granted heavy "sharpshooter" rifles weighing as much as thirty-some pounds were occassionally used for special purpose shooting, they are not NUG the kind of weapons used by "active" sharpshooters/skirmishers and were relegated to the wagons until needed for special work.

Looking at the prices of the so-so Lyman GPR these daze, IMHO unless one finds a used one at a low price, those dollars would go farther with an Ohio Rifle. The defunct Golden Age Arms used to offer Vincent rifles, and now TRACK OF THE WOLF offers component/parts ("kits.")

Curt

[Misplaced Rebel]

Re: Dimick Target Rifles- information/pictures needed

Curt-

Hairsplitting welcomed. :)

I too think Herr John has an excellent point, and there are definitely some features of the Ohio Vincent rifle that would make for a very well-put together Dimick or even just a non-specific custom target rifle that could be attributed to any number of builders. A few things, though, come to mind when I look at the Track kit of that gun in comparison to the GPR kit-

The barrel is too long, by about an inch. Granted, this could be shortened, but then one would have to either have the crown re-cut or make a 'false muzzle' out of the cut barrel end. The GPR is in the lower range of the allowed barrel lengths, but it is within specs as laid down by the 66th IL, measuring 32". The upper limit was 35", IIRC.

The stock shape is off, mostly in the wrist, but this can be reshaped. The GPR stock simply needs less reshaping, namely cutting back the
comb and removing the cheek rest (which are easily done assuming one knows how to use a rasp and sandpaper).

Cost, however, is the biggest issue. IMHO, one could start out with a GPR kit, which is wise considering how much stock work one will be doing anyway, for under $400 (depending on where you shop- I think DGW has them for $300 some-odd), put in most of the custom labor by oneself, and end up with a gun costing less than the Vincent kit or refurbing an original (which would still need work done at their starting prices) that is still very acceptable by our standards. But that is just MHO. :)

Keep this thread going! Anybody who has pictures or ideas, please share! :D

Cheers,

-Chris

[john.vansickle]

Re: Dimick Target Rifles- information/pictures needed

Herr Curt et al,
Thanks for the specifics. As I'm still in the world's nether regions, I'm having to rely on memory so was trying to paint broad strokes. The point I'm trying to make, is that what most people think of as a Hawkens/Hawkins rifle does not resemble the types of rifles being discussed, although the shop did produce similar guns throughout it's working history. Those just aren't available from production companies, who tend to produce firearms more closely resembling the archetypal Hawkins' rifle and frankly, I wasn't including the T/C, Frontiers, old CVA, etc.. for consideration because they just don't resemble anything historical. In the photo posted by Mr Walsh, at least one of the rifles has a back-action lock. Two have one barrel key and two have two keys. It's difficult to see if the guns have drums installed or have snail breeches. It appears that the only commonality is that it appears all guns have poured pewter nose-caps and two share similar patchbox/capbox covers. They also appear to have moderately sized barrels. Many of the original half-stock sporting rifles from this period I've examined have ridiculously large barrels regardless of the bore size.

It wouldn't be difficult at all to build a correct gun from parts for the same cost as a repro rifle-musket and in some cases, even less. I used to use "seconds" when I was building from pre-carved stocks. Black powder gun shows are good places to find random, parts. TotW's brass parts tend to be higher priced than DGW since they use a wax cast bronze which has a reddish cast to it. Sand cast yellow brass parts run at least 25 - 50% less in cost, but of course require more work. Like any other aspect of living history the biggest investment is in research and not fall into the trap of having to buy something "off the rack". It would be really interesting to see some correct half-stocks used in the right context. At this point, I'm now kicking the idea around in my head just to build one myself, just to do it... thanks guys.

Just a few thoughts,
John Van Sickle

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Dimick Target Rifles- information/pictures needed

Hallo!

Yes, there are many variables when it comes to giving "on-line advice" and one never knows if a lad or reader has basic or advanced "shop" type skills and tools, or the skill sets to assemble kits, build guns from loose parts, restore originals, or take $700 in component parts and turn them into $25 worth of useless parts.

I once knew a lad who owned ONLY one tool- a 4-in-1 rasp/file. And he didn't know how to use it. :) :)

Herr Chris:

You can start to build a reference image library by first just "right clicking" on an on-line image and saving it. (Does not work for copyrighted or protected images).

Second, when using a Search Engine, just add "images" at the end when you type in the search. You get a lot of chaff with the wheat, but you can pick and choose, then save.

A most excellent source of high quality or even professional images can be found on the higher-end on-line auction sites by auction houses like Cowan's for example that also deal in firearms. And, sometimes by Civil War dealers who sell on-line.

Curt

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Dimick Target Rifles- information/pictures needed

Here is a picture of a Dimick at the Missouri History Museum - with closeups of the same gun I believe (SN #187 ). These were taken by James Sullivan and further use of them would have to get permission from him. He is currently working on a project for the 14th Missouri / 66th Illinois.

http://www.civilwarmo.org/gallery#item/CWMO-13

John Walsh

[Jboring]

Re: Dimick Target Rifles- information/pictures needed

I would like to offer up the following resource to help you in your search. Take from it what you will, I'll admit that my background in this area is fledgling at best, but the lines on this particular kit seem much closer to what you might be looking for.

http://www.donstith.com/h_e__dimick.html

[Gary of CA]

Re: Dimick Target Rifles- information/pictures needed

There's a gun museum in Sante Fe, New Mexico that has a Dimick rifle.