RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

[GenuineInformation]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Mr. Heidenreich,

Without attempting to speak for Curt, I will attempt to address your question. Based on discussions I have had with Ben Tart, it is frequently difficult to tell whether a surviving garment was originally dyed or not. Due to the "fugitive" nature of vegetable dyes, as well as the composition of period fabrics commonly used in domestically-produced CS garments (jeans-a 2/1 twill weave, cassimere-a 2/2 twill weave, satinette-usually a 3/1 or 4/1 weave, and plains-a 1/1 or square weave, are all blends comprising a woolen weft and a cotton warp), the woolen threads of the dyed cloth may oxidize differently than do the cotton threads. Over 150 years' time, this gives an appearance not unlike undyed cloth, especially that woven on a tan or brown cotton warp.

Conversely, years of accumulated dirt may give cloth that was originally not dyed a more regular, if brownish, appearance, tending to cause a modern observer to speculate that it was originally dyed, and then oxidized.

In sum, while we know that the Confederates did dye some cloth to try to achieve a gray, or at least regular, color, we also know that some garments were cut from cloth that had never been dyed. Trying to determine actual ratios, though, based on extant museum pieces, can become very difficult due to the factors noted in the previous paragraph.

If you are planning to purchase garments, I recommend researching first the regiment or brigade you intend to represent with your impression. See whether there are any descriptions of how those soldiers looked at the time period you are going for. If so, try to find cloth that bears a reasonable resemblance to that description.

If you cannot find an original account, I recommend asking your messmates or NCOs or Officers of your unit for their advice. Lastly, if you do not trust their (lack of) research, you may wish to make a choice that gives you a "generic" garment. Given the multiple descriptions of Confederates as wearing clothing of irregular cut and color, this may end up also being authentic for your desired impression, even if no solid documentation to your unit of interest is available. If that's the case, then you cannot go wrong calling up any of the sellers of fabric in our hobby--Wambaugh & White, Charlie Childs, Ben Tart, and the gentleman in New Jersey, and asking their opinions. While I am not sure of Charlie Childs' current inventory, Wambaugh & White, Ben Tart, and the gentleman in New Jersey all either currently sell or will shortly be selling naturally dyed cloth. Undyed cloth is also widely available from those sources, and probably others that I am leaving out.

Best regards,
Joseph Knight

[max]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Thank you all for taking the time to answer me. I see that the issue is a lot more complex than I initially thought (which I must say I really like).

Mr. Heidenreich,

If you cannot find an original account, I recommend asking your messmates or NCOs or Officers of your unit for their advice.

The problem I face is that I have no NCO's or Officers to ask, and I have been put in charge of deciding the uniformity and equipment for the whole group. We are starting from scratch and to my knowledge so far there are no groups of American Civil War in Spain. So with your permission gentlemen I will be an avid reader of this forum, and the books you have recommended me, and occasionally I will make some dumb question if I can’t find the answer using the "search" button.

Best regards.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Hallo!

"Thanks for the very interesting information Curt. One of the things you say it’s “(The Confederates did not always dye)” Maybe are you saying dyeing the uniforms was more common than making them in natural colour? Are more surviving dyed examples than natural coloured ones?"

Herr Joseph has it well covered.

But I would just add that the scientific or chemical analysis needed to determine answers to dyeing versus natural are near never (use of a Universal so noted) likely to be used because it is not relative enough to submit rare artifacts to destructive processes and evasive tests.
(Although there are rare exceptions such as the research a number of years ago done on mordanted logwood dyed blue thread that had turned brownish.)

I hate to bring it up because the term had been beaten and battered so out of shape that it no longer had decent meaning... but sometimes we cannot put too fine a point on what we don't know- and sometimes in the absence of detailed research and documentation have to chose among what may have been PEC (Plain, Everyday, and Common). Meaning we have to choose from the lesser of teo evils in the absence of R & D to make a possible, plausible, and otherwise (relatively) "safe" choice. Such as putting a unit in time and place in say "RD-III's" because they were an ANV unit and we have documentation for say British Army Cloth RD-III's for the time and place of other units.
Is it right? No. Could it be right? Maybe. But it is "less wrong" than say something from a Deep South western depot not known to have been used in the ANV in 1864. Etc., etc.

Curt

[The Chesterfield Rifleman]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Most Richmond depot Type II's were made from Casssimere cloth. Popular dyes include Logwood, Sumac and Walnut or more commonly known as Butternut. There are surviving examples of RD II's made from jean, satinett and varigated or Tigerstripe wool. Common buttons found on these jackets include general service Federal eagle, English import or Script I and wood. Osnaburg was a very common lining on these jackets. Towards the end of the war, most jackets were made from English Army Cloth. If you want to know more about the Richmond depot jacket's history and design, take a look at the Company of Military Historians well written article on all three types.



All the Best,

[max]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Thank you for the info, Curt and James.

James I’m talking from memory now, but I believed Jeancloth was the most common material for RDII in 1863 being cassimere the second one, until Kersey material entered in great quantities in the end of 1863. Am I wrong?

Regards.

[unclefrank]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

I do remember reading that some depot jackets were made from a number of different materials from remenents of left over cloth. It would be interesting to see one of those.

[The Chesterfield Rifleman]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Thank you for the info, Curt and James.

James I’m talking from memory now, but I believed Jeancloth was the most common material for RDII in 1863 being cassimere the second one, until Kersey material entered in great quantities in the end of 1863. Am I wrong?

Regards.

Yes, Jean cloth was a common cloth used by the confederate army. And, yes , alot of Confederate jackets and trousers were made of jeancloth. However, cassimere was a well documented cloth in the ANV during Lee's Invasion of Pennsylvania.

Now, I will be man enough to admit my error. After all, that is why I joined this forum, to learn.

But jacket cloth didn't just stop at Jean's and cassimere's. Variouse satinettes, wools were also in use, however were very limited. So, stay away from those.
I would stick to jeans and cassimere's.

Also, look at some of the pocket and coller styles. Some coller styles are short and sloped, some are relatively tall and square cut. Some pockets are sewn into the lining while others are almost a seperate pocket attatched to the jackets. (Of course ALL pockets are seperate pockets, but you know what I mean.)

Company of Military Historian's Richmond issue Jackets Part two has details of the variouse styles of collers and pockets that were seen on the richmond production jackets.

All the Best,

[max]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Thank you for the clarification and your advice about the Cassimere in the ANV. I have read also the excellent article in the Company of Military Historian's you pointed me, a very useful article for a complex matter.

Regards.

[rmilstead]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

James,
Could you provide the source(s) for the contention that Cassimere, in particular, was used extensively for mid war jackets and trousers from the Richmond Depot. While I certainly wouldn't debate that it was used, the materials that I have seen are very non specific about the wool/cotton materials used with "jeans" being the most definitive term used. Of the existant RD2 jackets that I am aware of, English cloth is the predominant material, perhaps explained due to late war provinance, but of those from wool/cotton mixes they are mostly (completely?) satinette or maybe course jeans. No disrespect but if documented in period (original) sourses the fact that Cassimere was a heavily used material in mid war seems to be a very important fact.
I am attaching closeups from the John Blair Royall and Bernard jackets which are both a sort of jeans or satinette.



Dick Milstead
Hardaway's Alabama Battery
The Company of Military Historians

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Please Note: Don't Forget: This is the A-C, so please cite sources for your assertions.

[rmilstead]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

John,
Not sure if your reminder was intended with respect to my post or an earlier one. I posted pictures of two RD 2 jackets of wool/cotton material that appears to be satinette or something very similar but are in the jeans family. So is cassimere I would agree but with a very different appearance. English Cloth (or at least Blue Gray Kersey or Broadcloth type materials) are seen in two of the RD 2 jackets discussed by Jensen as well as the Brunson, Jenkins and River Bridge museum examples and at least 1 other jacket in a private collection that I am aware of. Jensen discusses some material types documented but only generically as woollen cloth on a cotton warp which could be jeans, satinette, or cassimere for that manner. One direct documentary reference that I am aware of is Major Richard Wallers letter to Quatermaster General (CS) A.C. Meyers dated April 24, 1863 (mid war) that mentions only Jeans: "I have on hand 375,000 pounds wool, which will produce 375,000 yards 3/4 jeans..." as well as references to domestically produced and English woolen cloth. The term Jeans could very well be woolen cloth of any type on a cotton warp but Waller is no more specific. The entire letter is on the "Blue and Gray Marching" website.
My post was to request that the other poster provide some period or other basis to the specific comments about extensive use of cassimere in the ANV at a specific period of the war (Gettysburg Campaign) since the most primary documentation and physical examples that I am aware of don't directly support such an assertion, i.e. the Waller letter and the John Blair Royall jacket both of which date from the April May 1863 timeframe.

Respectfully

Dick Milstead
Hardaway's Alabama Battery
Company of Military Historians

[The Chesterfield Rifleman]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Raw materials were supplied to the clothing manufactory through a central quartermaster department "Depot" in Richmond. The materials were obtained from a number of textile firms.

•The Crenshaw Woollen Mills of Richmond. Wool jeans & cotton jeans, it also supplied imported clothing such as shirts & drawers. From early 1862 till the summer of 1863.
•The Danville Manufacturing company of Danville Virginia. Wool kersey, wool-cotton cashmere & wool-cotton jeans cloth. From early 1862 till late 1864.
•The Manchester Cotton & Wool Manufacturing Co. of Richmond & Manchester Virginia. Woollen jeans cloth, cashmere and woollen broad cloth.
•The Scottsville manufacturing Co. of Scottsville Virginia. Wool-cotton jeans, wool-cotton cashmere and cotton osnaburg for shirting drawers and lining.

In addition to the larger firms listed above, small to medium size lots of cloth were received from other small mills in Virginia and North Carolina. After the winter of 1863, the Richmond Depot also received large quantities of English made blue-grey kersey, so by the summer of 1864 the clothing manufactory had become largely dependent on this imported cloth for it's manufacture of uniforms.


This is a section of a larger article published in the ACWS newsletter June 1999.

ALL CREDIT GOES TO THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE THIS ARTICLE. Not Me.

Bibliography & other research sources: -
•Leslie D Jensen, a survey of Confederate Central Government Quartermaster Issue Jackets, part 1. 1989
•Chris White, Proprietor of The New Richmond Depot.
•Editors of time-Life books, Echoes of Glory - Arms & Equipment of the Confederacy. 1991.

To view the full article, visit www.ACWS UK.com/archives richmond clothing manufactory records

It looks like cassimere cloth was in wide production from late 1862-mid 1863.

IMHO, I think the jackets were produced with any cloth they could get.

Hope this helps

[rmilstead]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

James,
Thank you for the excerpt from the 1999 ACWS article. I don't think many would debate that woolen cloth on a cotton warp like jeans and cassimere were significantly used in the Richmond Clothing Bureau's production of clothing. The mills mentioned certainly did produce these in substantial quantities. The Crenshaw mill also produced woolen cloth for the CS Government shops. More recent research has showed, however, that there was a great deal of English cloth coming in much earlier in the war that believed at the time that article was written. In a recent thread here on the AC Forum relating to Confederate Blue trousers, Dave Burt and others provided a number of period sources that described not only blue trousers cloth but Blue Gray cloth for jackets being available and use in the late '62 period and throughout '63. Here are a couple of quotes from that thread:
"Huse was shipping tens of thousands of yards of blue cloth for trousers fron the very outset of the conflict from England; as well as the famed 'Army Cloth' for jackets. Research in the McRae papers and other cargo invoices proves this beyond doubt. It must have been a common sight; especially in the first two years of the war, including the battles of Shiloh and Sharpsburg, to see CS soldiers in a blue grey jacket, blue pants and a full set of English accoutrements including the 'ball bag'.

The research proves this beyond a fact.

Dave Burt"

and:
"H'dts 7" SC Regt, Aug 19, 1862

From the last paragraph....

"I have nothing more of interest to write you. Our conscripts are tolerably
well fixed for camp life; nicely equipped & when we get our new uniform, I
think the old 7" will astonish her neighbors. We are having a uniform made in
Rich at the Gov't rooms, dark steel mixed jacket with light blue pants. The
pants are to be lined throughout with osnaburys. Both cloths are heavy & good,
English manufacture. Some men in the Regt are opposed to it, but I have
forbade the Qt Mast paying out a cent of clothing money, & hence they must come

in. Kindest regards to Mrs. Bland. With wishes for your speedy return.

I am as ever,
Yrs truly
D. Wyatt Aiken"

From the site "Blue and Gray Marching" in the :letter from the Richmond Depot" article, the October '62 contract in which the QM Dept. requested the agents purchase overseas 300,000 yards of cadet gray for jackets (which would be the "blue-gray kersey" we all know) and 275,000 yards of blue for pants is discussed.

I raise these points because in your earlier posts you stated "Most Richmond depot Type II's were made from Casssimere cloth.... There are surviving examples of RD II's made from jean, satinett and varigated or Tigerstripe wool." and "Yes, Jean cloth was a common cloth used by the confederate army. And, yes , alot of Confederate jackets and trousers were made of jeancloth. However, cassimere was a well documented cloth in the ANV during Lee's Invasion of Pennsylvania." I am still seeking your source for the well documented use of cassimere cloth in the ANV during Lee's Invasion of Pennsylvania. I will certainly accept that cassimere was one of the types of cloth used at the Richmond Depot for uniform production. I am also am interested in the surviving examples of RD 2 jackets that you refer to if they are different from the ones that I mentioned in my earlier post.
Again not to be argumentative only seeking clarification of your comments.

Dick Milstead
Hardaway's Alabama Battery
The Company of Military Historians

[The Chesterfield Rifleman]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Mr. Millstead,
I am at fault for telling you that most RD II's were made from cassimere. I listened to someone elses speculations and took them as facts. I myself am still looking for a definate answer on that too. I apologize.

Thank you for the article on the Blue Grey cloth. Are you reffering to the Blue Grey Kersey imported from England or are you reffering to any blue grey cloth?

Varigated wool was not a common cloth. However, it was a common trouser cloth before the war. Only two examples survive that I am aware of and only a sleeve suggests that a jacket was made from this cloth.

Now, I have come across these descriptions from Cadet Grey and Butternut Brown of ANV soldiers at Appomattox: " They were weary, earnest looking men, wearing butternut and grey colored clothing and broad brimmed hats." Cadet Grey and Butternut Brown Page, 95

So, this suggests that Butternut and Grey were very common colors all the way up to Appomattox. But, this goes against the speculation that the British Import Blue Grey Kersey was the predominate jacket cloth color in the ANV.

So, if you were to pick a common jacket and trouser color, shades of Butternut, ranging from deep dark Walnut to yellow Iron Dyed, and shades of Grey, from dark to light/ tan, would seem appropriet.

I have seen surviving examples of RD Type II's in both Butternut Jean, dark grey wool, and Import Kersey, but I have not seen any made from Cassimere.

So, while there is documentation that Cassimere cloth was produced from variouse mills for the Richmond Depot, I have not seen any surviving examples made from this specific cloth. Either the jackets saw too much usage and wore away, were burned when the soldiers were re-supplied due to bug infestation, or there are surviving examples and no one has found one yet. I have not been able to visit the MoC, so there might be a few there.

I am still searching and encourage anyone to throw in their 2 cents, as long as we stick to what the thread was started for,what were the most common colors of the Richmond Jackets. If I find any more info on Cassimere cloth having a wider usage in the ANV, I will post it here. If anyone else has good info on Cassimere cloth I would love to read it.

The article on Blue Grey Marching was Waller's letter from the Richmond Depot.
I will add this from the same article on Waller's letter. All credit goes to Blue Grey Marching.com


"Jean is the only material mentioned by Waller for the making of jackets and pants. However, we should not interpret this to mean that only jean was used. This brief letter was written to give the Quartermaster General an idea of the scope of his operation and what he expected to produce. It was not the place for a detailed run-down of materials and how much might be expected of each, which would be of little interest to Myers, and which Waller couldn't predict anyway. The records of various mills supplying the Richmond Depot clearly show large quantities of kersey and cassimere (a twilled wool and cotton cloth similar to jean) were also supplied before and after this letter was written."

Blue Grey Marching is currently doing a Gettysburg Project on the material culture and general look of both armies at Gettysburg that's worth a look at once it's finished.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

Regarding my comment earlier in this thread:
I was specifically directed toward the assertion that cassimere was used on a significant portion (if not a majority?) of RD jackets in the mid-63 time period. If there is evidence that such is the case, I would love to see it! However, given that we have evidence that English cloth was being imported in mass quantities and no surviving (that I am aware of) cassimere jacket, or photos of a cassimere jacket, etc., I think there needs to be a compelling piece of evidence for a such a bold assertion.

I accept the evidence that the listed mills were producing cassimere and that those mills were supplying the Richmond Clothing Bureau. But that corrolation does not mean that a majority of those garments were cassimere.

As an aside:
I am convinced, though I cannot state at the moment which mill was the source of the cloth, that the William Ott overshirt (4th VA, Company I, KIA at Manassas) is made of cassimere.

So, the assertion may be true, or some lesser variation of the assertion. But, the facts to support the assertion are not yet in evidence.

Thanks, folks!