Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

[Nathan Dodds]

Hello,

Is it legal to remove the serial number from reproduction blackpowder firearms? I have heard some people say yes, it is OK, and others say that if it is removed it must be re-stamped under the barrel. I know that you can buy barrels that do not have a serial number, but once one is already stamped on wouldn't it still be illegal to remove? Thanks!

[Boucher42]

Re: Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

I think this falls into the same category as the tag on your mattress and pillows. Flintlocks, and percussion firing weapons manufactured before 1898 or a facsimile thereof are not considered firearms. Only weapons that are manufactured after 1898 and use rim fire ammunition are classified as such and it is VERY illegal to remove the serial number from them. . If you wish to remove the serial number for "defarbing" purposes on a reproduction musket it is in your best interest to engrave or stamp the serial number on the bottom of the barrel for your protection/identification purposes.
Others may have opinions on this they wish to espouse.

[Silas]

Re: Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

You realize that asking opinions here is just going to be another group of people where some say, "yes," and some say, "no." Further, no lawyer who values his license to practice and who wants to keep his malpractice insurance premiums in check is going to provide general legal advice about an area with potential criminal implications on an internet forum.

A simple question like that is going to have a complicated answer. Part of the problem is that the law in state and local jurisdictions differs from other state and local jurisdictions. Sometimes the law differs within a state which is really infuriating. Then, you have to consult federal law and the rules in the federal administrative code to look for guidance. Finally, you have the problem of how the courts at the various levels interpret the law as written because sometimes a broadly stated law or rule may not apply to a particular situation. For example, much of it is going to be aimed at illicit arms sales, tracking terrorists, hunting and keeping parks safe. Good luck finding something which specifically mentions reenacting.

It would be nice if the law was simple, but every level of government has different needs and demands than the other levels. Accordingly, they pass laws, rules and policies which they deem appropriate to their own situations at that point in time.

[Nathan Dodds]

Re: Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

I realize that a direct answer is complicated. If anybody could point me to actual documents that offer clarification that would be great. I have looked but have not done very well in getting a direct answer. It would be kinda ironic if you cannot remove the serial number from a reproduction musket but you can buy a barrel to build your own that never had a serial number. I know my brother bought a .36 cal barrel and built a squirrel rifle and to my knowledge it does not have a serial number.

[dixieflyer]

Re: Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

Well Nathan, the BATF has all the documents you need insofar as Federal law is concerned. As to your state and local law, I'd consult the NRA to see if they can point you to the right person in your locale for advisement.

[JimKindred]

Re: Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

I am not a lawyer but I have been a Federal licensed dealer for over thirty years and work with firearms regulations on a daily basis.

This subject gets beat to death every few years and is far from complicated. Link below is to our previous discussion about this.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?18015-Removing-Italian-Markings&highlight=Removing+Serial+Number

1) A muzzleloader under the Gun Control Act of 1968 is not a firearm therefore under Federal regulations is not governed as such.

2) In that they are not classified as a firearm any Federal regulations governing them do not apply.

3) The only reason muzzleloaders have a serial number either has to do with the country they were manufactured or for importation purposes only. Once in the US you can file, grind or use whatever method you prefer to remove the serial number. Federal regulations do not apply.

Except for NJ and possibly one or two other states, the states follow Federal regulations with regards to muzzleloaders.

One thing to remember that will keep you out of trouble - Henry and Spencer reproductions are classified as modern firearms. Don't go moving, altering or removing serial numbers on those, big trouble if you do.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html#antique-definition

Q: What qualifies as an antique firearm?
As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —

… A.any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

B.any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica — i.is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
ii.uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

C.any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

[JimKindred]

Re: Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

I think this falls into the same category as the tag on your mattress and pillows. Flintlocks, and percussion firing weapons manufactured before 1898 or a facsimile thereof are not considered firearms. Only weapons that are manufactured after 1898 and use rim fire ammunition are classified as such and it is VERY illegal to remove the serial number from them. . If you wish to remove the serial number for "defarbing" purposes on a reproduction musket it is in your best interest to engrave or stamp the serial number on the bottom of the barrel for your protection/identification purposes.
Others may have opinions on this they wish to espouse.

Absolutely no need unless you just want to. Also in the case of post 1898 firearms it is against regulations to alter or move a serial number without written permission from ATF for an exception to the regulation.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

Hallo!

I am not a lawyer...

Per the Federal Government (BATFE)

In brief, according to the U.S. Gun Control acts.... "firearms" must have serial numbers. However...

Antique Firearm 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16)

The term "ANTIQUE FIREARM” means:

A: Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;

and

B. Any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica

i. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

ii. uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the
ordinary channels of commercial trade.

C: Any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term antique firearm shall not include any weapon which includes a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock or any combination thereof.

So, at the FEDERAL level, there is a difference under the Law between a "firearm" which is not the same as "antique firearm." FIREARMS require serial numbers and other markings. ANTIQUE FIREARMS do not.

In reenacting terms...

A "Springfield" or "Enfield" is a reproduction of an ANTIQUE FIREARM not requiring a serial number. The Italians give them ones to comply with their proof laws. And import tracking. However, a Spencer or Henry (or Winchester) is a FIREARM.
A percussion revolver, say a Colt Army or Navy is not a FIREARM. However, a metaliic cartridge conversion of one to say .45 Colt or 44 WCF is.

And that leads to a reinforcement of what Herr Silas has shared.... that is Federal Gunn Control Act law. Your individual state or city may have its own more "severe" laws.

I would also add the thorny area of what LEO's (including prosecuitng attorneys and judges) actually may know about the Law and the law versus what they think or believe. Or for that matter BATF receptionists who answer their phones.

For longer discussions, much of this topic is reenacting legend and lore, or idyl campfire chatter that gets written into misinformation stone. You can run a SEARCH to delve deeper into the previous discussions.

And some things do not make too much sense IMHO. Say a Colt M1873 in .45 Colt made in 1897 is exempt. A repro of it, shooting the same commercially availabe .45 Colt ammo... is not. The same Colt made in 1899 is also not exempt.

Curt
Not a lawyer, nor do I portray one on-line or TV

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

Hallo!

Sorry for the duplication.. we were typing at the same times it appears, and I type the slowest.

Curt

[David Fox]

Re: Removing Serial Number from Repros, is it legal?

This question was recently mooted (again) on the N-SSA forum, growing out of a defarbing question. A lot of "you don't dare" observations. Of those, none was then prepared to address the typical Skirmisher scenerio of The Swapped Custom Barrel.