Question for you feds..

[FloridaConscript]

Fellas,
Long time johnny and first time fed here. Two questions.
1) keepers on waiste belts. the leather loop. what exactly is its function? are you supposed to run the buckle through it every time you put on your belt? how accurate would it be to remove it?
2) issue shirts. got mine. domet flannel. i don't mine the itchyness. i know they are one size fits all, i'm not the tallest guy around and mine reaches almost to my knees. any evidence of issue shirts being altered in any way? buttons moved excess tail cut off??
whats the poop?

thanks in advance

Bryant Roberts/ look weird in blue

[rebyank]

Re: Question for you feds..

I've read about and seen pics of leather belt keepers cut off to make it easier to put on without hassel. you can also just ignore it and not use it, I've seen photos of gear put on like that.

hope this helps,

[Jimmayo]

Re: Question for you feds..

See page below.

Also, make sure you have the right size buckle to fit through the loop.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/relics.html

[C.Osgood]

Re: Question for you feds..

Bryant,

I have examined some fed belts with the loops cut off and some with them still intact. As a matter of fact I saw one with the leather loop so small no belt buckle could fit throught it? As far as issue shirts go, your guess is as good as mine, I have seen 3 issue shirts, none of which were altered, however thats 3 out of the millions produced, best bet is to see what you can find in letters. Im not the tallest guy either at 5' 7" my shirt reaches mid thigh, and well I just keep it that way. My understanding is they were supposed to be a bit long on you. Anyhow good luck with any further info.

[coffee boiler]

Re: Question for you feds..

As for the belts, this issue of why the leather loop would have been made smaller than the buckle has been debated on several occasions. The theory that makes the most sense to me is the one put forward by Fred Grogan, which explains the purpose of the leather loop being smaller than the belts was to prevent the bayonet and cap pouch from slipping off. In other words the belt was meant to remain a continue loop that you stepped into and pulled up to your waist then tightened. In this fashion the bayonet and cap pouch could never accidentally slip off the belt and be lost.

As for the length of the issued shirt, I think that varied with wartime productions.
From “The 14th U.S. Infantry Regiment in the American Civil War – John Young Letters” Edited by C. Russell Hunley and published by Burd Street Press.

“I wish you could send me two cotton shirts. I don’t want any bosum in them, nor collar on them. Now don’t put yourself out of the way to send them, but the lice gets into those wollen[sic] shirts so. They are poor things, they are so short.”
- John Young

[Jasper]

Re: Question for you feds..

Bryant.

Here is what you do for the belt keeper.
First make sure you have the right buckel if it is still to tight of a fit to get the buckel threw. Then soak the keeper in some water wrap some water proof tape around the buckel to make it a little thicker. Then place the buckel in the keeper until dry you should then have no more problems.

As far as the shirt I will say this. During times of war UNIFORM REGS go out the door and changes are made to items. To make them more workable or comfterbale.

Fellas,
Long time johnny and first time fed here. Two questions.
1) keepers on waiste belts. the leather loop. what exactly is its function? are you supposed to run the buckle through it every time you put on your belt? how accurate would it be to remove it?
2) issue shirts. got mine. domet flannel. i don't mine the itchyness. i know they are one size fits all, i'm not the tallest guy around and mine reaches almost to my knees. any evidence of issue shirts being altered in any way? buttons moved excess tail cut off??
whats the poop?

thanks in advance

Bryant Roberts/ look weird in blue

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Question for you feds..

Another thought on the length of the Federal Issue Shirt would be the use of the extra length for cleaning patches.

Wear and tear would also be a factor.

One of my other posts shows a civilian shirt with the bottom 6-8 inches of the front and the bottom 4 inches of the back replaced with other fabric types. Quite possibly due to wear. The shirt was by no means made this way, but the bottom was mended by hand.

Just my thoughts.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Question for you feds..

Regarding belts...

Remember, the 1839 pattern belt was not designed to carry accoutrements. As with previous US patterns, the 1839 belt was intended to be worn without a scabbard or cap box since cap boxes weren't in use yet and the bayonet scabbard was still suspended from a sling or baldric.

The bayonet/frog configuration we are familiar with from the CW period came out during the mid-1840's.

That said, I don't think the leather keeper was there to hold the accoutrements in place but I'm not going to discount the "continuous loop" theory. Actually, I think that slipping into the belt makes even more sense when are considering it was designed not to carry accoutrements.

[K Bartsch]

Re: Question for you feds..

Another thought on the length of the Federal Issue Shirt would be the use of the extra length for cleaning patches.

Wear and tear would also be a factor.

One of my other posts shows a civilian shirt with the bottom 6-8 inches of the front and the bottom 4 inches of the back replaced with other fabric types. Quite possibly due to wear. The shirt was by no means made this way, but the bottom was mended by hand.

Just my thoughts.

Todd,
Cleaning patches cut from shirts? Maybe so, and not to be gross or anything, but think about what the bottom 6-8 inches of the front of a shirt of the period would be exposed to 6 to 8 times a day -- particularly if the wearer went "commando". Ditto the back of the shirt.
Might explain the need to replace these areas of the shirt from time to time.

Cheers,

[DukeRPSC]

Re: Question for you feds..

Bryant:

Congratulations! True progressives need dual impressions in order to bring proper numbers balance to events. "Greybackitis" afflicts the authentic side of the hobby every bit as much as it does the mainstream. And yes, it does look weird seeing yourself in blue. Johnny is just so much cooler.

Field modifications of standard clothing were very common, up to and including dying shirts. Alter the issue stuff to your own tastes tempered only by the desire to portray the typical soldier in the field. I have even been known to intentionally buy items too large/small in order to show the nature of issue clothing , ie "one size fits all."

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Question for you feds..

Time out...let me make a right turn into the gutter here for my next comment.

OK...look at it this way....the shirt would already have bore butter on it! :sarcastic

Seriously though, there could be many reasons as to why shirts may have to have the bottom of them replaced. Friction and wear being one of them.
Using fabric for bore patches, or patches for holes in garments is another possibility, though not currently documented when we are talking about Federal Issue Shirts.

However, we do have the quote from the John Young letters that speaks of how short his issue shirt is. With that, I would think that one could take their current shirt and shorten it up a bit, and reconstruct the side vents and tails as per the original. Of course, do we know how tall John Young was...which may explain why his shirt may have been short.
Just some thoughts.

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Question for you feds..

duke, Casey, and all John,
thanks for the responses. will take them into consideration.
guess i just gotta crawl out and do more events and that should take care of it huh??
and Duke you are right, it just don't look right. oh well catch ya at grouchos.

bryant roberts/look weird anyway

[Darrell Cochran]

Re: Question for you feds..

You could always wash your shirt a few times to shrink it up -- Aside from the spectacular roughness of Domet flannel, even the Army's inspector general dissed them in the 1850s for shrinking so bad after washing "as to render the item unfit for service." (Army Blue, p. 37) -- And this on guys who tended to be a few sizes smaller than we are, which would lead one to believe that the shirts in their original form were a lot too big to start with.

But don't take this as a recommendation -- Every now and then you'll find a Federal issue shirt in the "For Sale" forum that some fellow has found no longer fits after a washing.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Question for you feds..

Hallo Kameraden!

Indeed, I do the same- as part of the common issue system and its basis of "do, make do, or "do without" in wearing what one was given WITHOUT regard to one's actual size, trading off with another man for a more mutual fit, or "tailoring" things oneself or utilizing the services of another with tailoring skills.

I wear my Federal blouses and trousers one (1) and sometimes two (2) sizes too LARGE, for a dapper (or is it frumpy) look...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Question for you feds..

Hallo Kameraden!

Regarding dyeing:

The Civil War Journals of Wilson E. Chapel, Co. "F," 13th Regt. Illinois Infantry. from Cortland, Sycamore, DeKalb Co. Ill."


"Thursday, Sept 25th
We drew white flannel shirts, but as we do not like white shirts, Babcock and I got some maple-bark and copperas and colored ours and so many of the boys wanted their colored, we concluded to make a business out of it and have already colored over 40 shirts and have got as many more as we can color tomorrow. Dull about town and camp.

Friday, Sept 26th

Today I am 23 years old. This is the second birthday I have passed in the service and I am afraid I shall pass yet another in the service. Everything is bustle and confusion as we are ordered to get ready to march nobody know where. Our Company was detailed to unload boats, but I did not have to go. Worked nearly all day in coloring shirts. Some think we are going [to] Batesville [AR] and some to Little Rock; but I hope it is to neither place.

Saturday, Sept 27th
Our trains are all loaded and we have drawn every thing we need and are ready for a march. Today, finished my third month’s cooking and I am tired enough to quit. Worked coloring shirts for the last 3 days and have colored at least 95 and hope we are about through with it, but many more want theirs colored and if we stay here we shall do it."

For those not experienced with such dyestuffs, it makes a medium blue.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Sure Is Hard to Earn Reputation Points Mess :-)