Jacket taper

[nwwinslow]

How common was tapering on confederate depot jackets? Was it at all present, or none existent? If it was present, were the jacket all tapered a uniform amount?

Noah Werner Winslow

[GenuineInformation]

Re: Jacket taper

Please explain what you mean by "tapered."

[nwwinslow]

Re: Jacket taper

Where the waist is smaller than the chest size, giving a much more fitted jacket. As in, a size 36" jacket that would have a 30" waist, giving a 6" taper. My question is whether or not this was present on any jackets.

Noah Werner Winslow

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Jacket taper

Hallo!

In brief and to over generalize...

There was much more 'tailoring' in jackets and dress coats. Not so much in fatigue blouses.

However, the 'tailoring' lies in the pattern pieces and shape of the garment intended to impart a certain look. Say the "padded' chest of a dress coat to give one a "pigeon breasted' look. (Hard to achieve if one's belly is greatly larger than one's shoulders or chest.)
Next comes the education, training, experience, and skills of the individual tailors and seamstresses who assembled the packaged "kits' from the arsenal or those made by arsenals/depots.

And last, is the body shape or "morphology" of the 'typical' Civil War soldier not always present or represented by modern reenactors who tend to be older, heavier, and possessing of a different morphology- complicated by many "Mainstream" vendor/maker uniforms that are not always made to exacting Civil War patterns, or assembled in similar ways.

Tis... complicated.

Curt

[nwwinslow]

Re: Jacket taper

So it would be common to see a large variance in fit and make, meaning that some jackets may have been made with a tapered fit and some without?

Noah Werner Winslow

[CSchneider]

Re: Jacket taper

Of all the original jackets I have examined and measured, I have yet to see one where the waist is not narrower than the chest. The exact measurement varies, with around 6 inches being a general average based upon my memory. Reproduction jackets, however...

-Craig Schneider

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Jacket taper

As with most things clothing-related, not limited to military jackets, but rather a tailoring industry standard. You'll find the proportionate waist defined as something like 1/6 less than the measure of the breast, i.e. a 42" chest (which, for patternmaking purposes, is 21" -- you're only dealing with one half of the garment at a time, after all) should have a waist of 35" (17.5" -- 1/6 of 42" = 7, or 3.5" when halved. Subtract this from the breast.) Anything beyond that, and you're into the "stout" and "corpulent" measurements. Thus, the taper.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Jacket taper

Hallo!

"So it would be common to see a large variance in fit and make, meaning that some jackets may have been made with a tapered fit and some without?"

I am thinking you are not yet seeing the picture.

In brief and to over generalize...

The pattern pieces/parts cut out at the arsenals/depots and distributed to local "sewers' (aka tailors or more often than not seamstresses) are based on as et concept of size and proportion within the size ranges- NUG 1-4, with 5-7 or 8 available on special order. And, larger or smaller say as was done by the Special Clothing Bureau at Schuylkill for the odd ball size (assuming they made it to the field for issuance to the right lads.)

Anyways, within the patterns. are the relationship dimensions between the parts as Herr Marc explained.

Where one sees the most variance lies in an issuance system that did not issue based on actual size. A man typically got what standard size range and proportional percentage was next in the pile. So, one wore what one received as is, traded it off uo down size for a better fit, or self-tailored or company-tailored it to fit better.

Curt

[Bob McDonald]

Re: Jacket taper

Noah:

Given that your question refers to Confederate standard-issue/"depot" jackets, I can comment in general based on the several original examples illustrated in the CS "Echoes of Glory" volume, and a few others, which were at that time in my care. IMO and, again, generally, the imported Irish-manufactured jackets of the Peter Tait contracts tend to present more of a pronounced taper and generalized "stylish" fit than do any domestically-manufactured CS jackets. (Example: Tait jacket of Pvt. Hugh Lawson Duncan, 39th GA Inf., AOT.)

In a second category, IMO, are the so-called Richmond Depot jackets. All such jackets indeed display tapering, only simply less "extreme" than that noted for the Tait styling. In my experience, there is essentially no significant difference on this criterion between the "Type II" and "Type III" Richmond Depot patterns. (Example: "Type III" Richmond Depot jacket of Pvt. John Kennedy Coleman, 6th SC Inf., ANV.)

In a third category, IMO, are the North Carolina standard state-issue jackets, ca. 1862-65, as well as the so-called Department of Alabama jackets, ca. 1864-65, each of these patterns displaying significantly less tapering than is seen in the typical Richmond style pattern. Both the NC state shells and, especially, the DOA jackets are quite nearly sack coats in styling, with only minimal - and certainly not "stylish" - degree of tapering to the waist. (Example: "2nd pattern" North Carolina state jacket of Pvt. Amzi Leroy Williamson, 53rd NC Inf., ANV.)

During the time of my actively collecting, I never handled an example of the "Columbus Depot" pattern jacket. Geoff Walden's very well illustrated survey devoted to several examples of this pattern should assist you on that matter - http://authentic-campaigner.com/arti...n/cdjacket.htm


I hope the above is of benefit.


Bob McDonald

[Murph]

Re: Jacket taper

In a third category, IMO, are the North Carolina standard state-issue jackets, ca. 1862-65, as well as the so-called Department of Alabama jackets, ca. 1864-65, each of these patterns displaying significantly less tapering than is seen in the typical Richmond style pattern. Both the NC state shells and, especially, the DOA jackets are quite nearly sack coats in styling, with only minimal - and certainly not "stylish" - degree of tapering to the waist. (Example: "2nd pattern" North Carolina state jacket of Pvt. Amzi Leroy Williamson, 53rd NC Inf., ANV.)

Bob, I wanted to interject there and say that, while I agree with you that the MacRae NC depot jacket as seen in Echoes of Glory exhibits less taper than the Richmond Depot or Tait jackets, I have personally handled the Williamson jacket (which is currently in a private collection) and can attest that it does in fact taper considerably into the waist, and the two-piece back panel narrows significantly, much like the back panel of a Richmond Depot jacket.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Jacket taper

Doesn't Devere's "Proportionate Man" (I think that's the term) have a 10" drop from chest to waist?

So, a 30-inch waist would be considered "proportional" for a man with a 40" chest.

[GenuineInformation]

Re: Jacket taper

Doesn't Devere's "Proportionate Man" (I think that's the term) have a 10" drop from chest to waist?

So, a 30-inch waist would be considered "proportional" for a man with a 40" chest.

According to this pamphlet by Williams Clothiers, Devere's "Proportionate Man" didn't quite have such a large drop. The pamphlet lists the man as having a 37.5" chest and a 31.5" waist, or a six-inch drop.

http://workshops.williamsclothiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/The-Draft.pdf

[floridawar]

Re: Jacket taper

Gents,

I noticed at the museum of the confederacy some years ago that several of their CS Army jackets had vertical darts cut and taken in from the bottom at about midway from fronts to side underarm seam. Perhaps these were cases where the wearer's chest/waist "drop" was disproportionately large, (assuming the chests fit), or that it was easier to "fit" overlarge jackets by taking in the waist as such, than trying to resize the chest, (where ease is tolerable) etc.

cheers,

[Matthew Semple]

Re: Jacket taper

I have examined all of the original surviving specimens of Confederate depot issued jackets from Richomond known to exist except three.

Please let me refine the discussion:

Of what time period? Of what depot issue? Of what manufacture?

V/r,
Matt