Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

[tiremann]

Does anyone happen to know whether Federal units who were issued Enfields were issued Enfield scabbards and frogs, or did they just uses the Springfield setup? I find my Enfield scabbard a pain because of its length and tendency to move around and get tangled in my legs, while the Springfield with its built-in angle keeps the scabbard out of the way of my moving parts. My Enfield bayonet fits my Springfield scabbard okay for length and tightness, but the orientation of the flat side is the complete opposite, making drawing and replacing more difficult. Since I have both muskets and like to trade off at re-enactments I would like to be able to avoid switching scabbards each time. Any thoughts?

[JimKindred]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

Every Enfield bayonet I have seen when they would fit in a Springfield scabbard would orient the socket in the same position as the Springfield bayonet.

The question that begs to be asked is what type of events do you attend that suggest you need to have two muskets of different types? Few if any authentic events offer the time or place to have two muskets.

There have been a number of discussions on the forum about Enfield scabbards over the years, you should be able to find these using the search function.

As a side note we require you to sign all posts with your first and last name. You can setup an automatic signature in your profile.

[tiremann]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

I seem to have rubbed you the wrong way in my first post. I merely meant that I would like to be able to fire two muskets, not that I do. I like to have a spare in the event of a major malfunction thousands of miles from home in another country with different firearms laws. I could take a picture of my bayonets in their scabbards to show the orientation, if you like.

[JimKindred]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

I could take a picture of my bayonets in their scabbards to show the orientation, if you like.

That would help because what you are describing doesn't sound correct, the sockets are oriented the same on Springfield and Enfield bayonets.

[Pennvolunteer]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

As Jim suggests, research is the key and use the unit specifically to find what they were issued. However, I believe what you will find in your research is that as a general rule among Federal units is they were issued standard Federal accoutrements, what you describe as the "Springfield" scabbard, the 2 rivet or later after 1863 the 7 rivet regardless of whether they were equipped with Springfields model 1842, 1855, 1861, or Enfields.
What is interesting is that Robert Serio and I just had an email discussion on this matter and he shared the following with me;
The waistbelt suspension bayonet scabbard commonly associated with the American Civil War has its roots in the scabbard first described in the 1850 Ordnance manual. That scabbard had a white buff belt loop, black throat and sheath. Accouterments are usually described as pattern and year which suggests this is the pattern 1850 bayonet scabbard. Sometime in the late 1850s, two rivets were added to bolster the throat and belt loop. The 1861 Ordnance Manual calls for the scabbard to have a black buff belt loop and two rivets. Shortages of buff leather would lead to the use of waxed flesh leather as a substitute. For the 1861 contract which began production in July 1862, the scabbards seem to have had uniformly bridle leather belt loops (smooth grain). Sometime in late 1862 Watertown Arsenal's accouterment makers began to tinker around with a 7 rivet scabbard which was qualified in February 1863.

Some European muskets the bayonet did not fit that scabbard, but Enfields certainly do. On the other hand, some units were issued British accoutrements with their Enfields to include scabbards, but again, that would have to be researched and documented. If you are looking for a generic Federal impression, go with the "Springfield", (or as some call it based on the Lord's publication on equipment, the "Gaylord" pattern) and that is a safe bet for a Federal impression, and as you say, is much less troublesome than the Enfield scabbard.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

Hallo!

The U.S. M1855 (Type I and II) bayonet had a maximum blade width of 25/32." And, a blade length of 18 inches

The British P1853 bayonet had a maximum blade width of 26/32." And, a blade length of 18 inches.

So, for the 1/32" difference, the Enfield is just a snugger fit or within the "stretchability" of the scabbard leather.

(The blade width of a M1842 bayonet was 28/32.")

Some reproduction scabbard makers now ask whether a Springfield or Enfield bayonet, and alter the scabbard "in advance."

Curt

[tiremann]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

Thanks everyone for your input. Evidently I am not able to post a picture, so I can't show what I was talking about viz the orientation of the sockets in the two scabbards. Perhaps I have a Springfield scabbard that is made backwards. Am content for now to just go with the Springfield for the Springfield and the Enfield with the Enfield. Will research some more about the subject. Since I live a million miles from anywhere with a group ( the nearest would be Washington state) I will have to remain fairly generic. I know, why take up this hobby under such circumstances? Why not? It interests me more than anything I've done up to now. And I love coming to the US for my holidays.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

Mark: I have a couple of Enfield P-53 bayonet shown on this page http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/scabbard.html

Compare your Enfield bayonet flat and socket to the one pictured that came from North Carolina. It is possible you don't have a bayonet made for a P-53.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

Here are some of my bayonets and scabbards

[tiremann]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

Thanks for the pictures and article. This shows just what I was trying to explain - flat side of blade OUT on Enfield, IN or Springfield. By the way, great article and I will try and "steal" it for my own archive.
Mark Drage

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

Hallo!

I am still not clear, and not following this...

"My Enfield bayonet fits my Springfield scabbard okay for length and tightness, but the orientation of the flat side is the complete opposite, making drawing and replacing more difficult."

I am guessing now, that may be more a matter of which "manual of arms" you use for fixing and unfixing the bayonet?? (And not a matter of blade orientation or scabbard per se.) Oh, such as left hand reversed in Casey's versus right hand in Scott's or Hardee's.

??

Curt

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Federal Bayonets and Scabbards

Thanks for the pictures and article. This shows just what I was trying to explain - flat side of blade OUT on Enfield, IN or Springfield. By the way, great article and I will try and "steal" it for my own archive.
Mark Drage

Mark, if you look at the photo I posted you can see the flat of the bayonet is "OUT" on the British pattern scabbard, and "IN" on the US pattern scabbard. I have found in practice the British pattern scabbard is incredibly awkward to wear.