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How to “speak Italian” or “Why do the Italian torment us with bogus modern markings and stampings?”
History.
It has been said that time heals all wounds. And it might be so when it comes to reproduction Civil War firearms. Back in the 1950’s and 1960’s there was an international controversy over the talk of producing reproducing CW arms driven by the fear that the prestige as well as monetary value of original Civil War weapons would be severely affected by counterfeits and fakes that would flood the market using reproduction guns as the basis for the deception. The second argument was more emotional and harder to understand- that being that producing X number of reproductions would somehow drive down the value of Y number of originals out there known and unknown. And last but not least, was simple embarrassment that well known authorities, experts, and well known collectors
Would in the early years “get taken” by altered or faked Italian reproductions when such men should have been the last to be deceived.
Long Story Short. A sort of compromise was worked out. The first reproduction revolvers, and all of the subsequent reproductions, would NOT be exact “made again” return to production where the last original left off, nor an exact copy or clone. Instead, differences were ‘built in” the reproduction such as different dimensions, slightly off grip frame angle, modern screws, different number of rifling grooves, different rifling twist direction, different chamber size, different bore size. Or in the case of the first early Val Forgett “Colt’ Navy no cylinder safety pin rests or notch on the hammer nose to sit on them; or a different rear sight notch in the hammer nose. Etc., etc.
Originals.
Originals carry original company and factory markings. Reproductions almost never do because they are made as “copies” or ‘reproductions’ of historical firearms by others such as the “Italians” often because the guns are no longer being made and the patents have expired. Or the company has long ceased to exist.
One exception is “Colt” Colts. Setting aside obvious observations such as Uberti made parts, assembled by Iver Johnson, and marketed as Colts by modern-day Colt… the Italians cannot use “propriety” names and logos of existing companies such as Colt, Remington, Smith & Wesson, or Winchester for their reproductions of historic arms. Colt recognizes 2nd Generation guns as theirs. Not so much the 3rd Generation and Signature Series. But yet, both are “proprietary” to Colt and made “under license” for Colt so these are the only reproductions that carry true Colt markings/stampings.
Once Upon a Time, and still true for all but the more historical and authenticity minded, this was even an issue as shooters, hobbyists, and even reenactors could care less what original markings were missing or what modern bogus, spurious, or otherwise distracting stampings were on their reproductions.
Reproductions.
Italian reproduction makers have been fairly consistent with the type and display of their modern day stampings although they do vary a little over time and even among the same maker. Italian firearm laws
Dictate certain things as perhaps does fears of lawsuits and litigation warnings.
Most of the stampings on Italian reproduction firearms mirror the same requirements as on their modern cartridge firearms. These are also needed for export and import. While laws in the U.S. are not the same, we have certain federal and state laws that see blackpowder replicas of antique firearms as non-guns and not firearms. However, different states and localities do sometimes. Anyways, the modern stampings are needed to produce a legal firearm in Italy (black powder p[roof testing and overall firearm inspection proof for example) and to allow it to be exported/imported into the USA by a number of importers/vendors under mass or individual contracts.
By and large, the main Italian reproduction firearms one will see are Euroarms Italia S.r.L. America, , Aldo Uberti S.r.L Pedersoli, ArmiSport, Armi San Paolo S.r.L (1973-2001), F.LLL (Fratelli) Pietta, Palmetto, and the defunct Armi San Marco.. These makers typically use a company logo device, logo and their name, or just their name or abbreviation of their name. Older guns NUG carry just a logo stamp but newer ones tend to carry a logo and a name. Some will add their location of “Made in Italy.” And due to lawsuits, some version of “Blackpowder Only” or “Use Black Powder Only?” And, often times, for those who cannot figure it out. A calibre “warning” or bore size.
Company logs. Uberti uses the muzzle view of a Colt Navy with a “U” inside the bore. Pedersoli uses a lower case opposed “d” and “p” for Davide Pedersoli. Armi Sport uses an upper case “A” and “C” for Armi Chiappa taken from founder Rino Chiappa’s last name). Armi San Paolo uses an upper case “D” next to a “G” over another “G” for the three founders- Doninelli, Grassi, and Gazzola. Pietta uses the upper case letters “DAP” in a sideways diamond. Palmetto uses a palmetto tree inside of a circle. Armi san Marco will use their name or the initials "ASM."
First is the code for the year of manufacture. I have posted the chart here before, so it should be available through the SEARCH feature or versions are to be found online. In brief,
They are two alphabet letters starting in 1958 with “AA” in a box, then continuing through the “BB” range in 1992 by advancing the second letter until the alphabet is used up then changing the first letter.
Next come two proofs. The first is a blackpowder proof done by the Gardone proofing house. It is a star surrounded by eight “lands and grooves’ over the capital letter “PN” (Polvere Nera or Black Powder) or rarely besides the latters.
The second is the firearm inspection proof of Gardone which is the same star and lands/grooves (aka “wreath”) over a crest consisting of hammer, anvil, and crossed bayoneted rifles. All Italian made firearms are inspected and “proofed” and receive the second Gardone stamp.
And last is the importer’s name and or names and location. Various vendors will contract or negotiate for reproductions with more or less Quality Control” in order to be able to sell them at their business model needed price. Often, NUG, the imported will have the gun stamped with their own company name and location- say “Dixie Gun Works” or Navy Arm Co, Ridgefield N.J., USA” etc. As a result, some lads think they have a Dixie or Navy Arms made gun when in fact it is Italian made say by Pietta or Uberti and just imported by Dixie or Navy Arms. This can be important as one can bypass say the “Dixie Gun Works, Union City, TN” type barrel stamp of a Uberti Uberti say revolver rather than a “Dixie/Uberti” revolver. Or paying for the higher standards and QC of say a Cimarron Firearms Company import where they contract for “minimal modern stampings or having them stamped in less visible locations such as under the barrel of a revolver hidden by the loading lever or inside the trigger guard cut out hidden when the trigger guard is in place.
So. On say a repro Colt or Remington revolver, one will expect to find the following.
1. In the right hand side of the frame, the date code, the Gardone BP proof, and the Gardone firearm inspection stamp.
2. In the barrel in front of the cylinder, the same date code, the Gardone BP proof, and the Gardone firearm inspection stamp.
3. On lower price guns, the maker’s logo and name/location and blackpowder and calibre warning on top of the barrel where the Period makers’ name would be. If there is a USA importers name and location, the Italian info may be stamped under the barrel or on the side.
4. Italian firearm identification aka “serial the date code, the Gardone BP proof, and the Gardone firearm inspection stamp.
5. The Italian firearm identification number or “serial” number. For revolver NUG on the bottom of the barrel unit and at the front of the frame in front of the trigger guard. A semi nice touch as that is where they are on original Colt revolvers but the size and style of the font is not Period. These are needed by the Italians to make a firearm, as well as to be able to export it say to the USA (The USA has no proof houses or proofing system, and has a joint "self policing" done by each maker themselves.)
The same appear on Italian reproduction rifles, muskets, rifle-muskets, and rifled muskets. NUG, typically with the Italian makers name and/or US importer’s name on the barrel top. And the date code, the Gardone V. T. BP proof, the Gardone firearm inspection stamps, and manufactures’ firearm ID or serial number down at the breech’s left hand side where the US proofs are on originals.
Pretty much so, sometimes one can pay more for say a revolver because it will not have all of the bogus stampings, or have they "more hidden" and in less "obtrusive" locations. Some argue that the presence of no stamps is a larger negative than the absence of Period stamps or markings. But, it gets muddied a bit as the higher end importers seem to be having their company logos stamping in more Period fonts and to a shallow depth in the metal so as to be less obvious especially to Men of a Certain Age or greater, or those needed reading glasses to actually read the text to tell it is not the correct Period version.
Guns assembled from kits will NUG lack much of this. Although some carry the Gardone BP proof, and the Gardone firearm inspection stamp on the barrel.
And, of course, (so-called) defarbed guns will have the bogus modern stampings removed and in the case of longarms often replaced with a universal version of the Period U.S. proofs.
“De-farbed’ revolvers will NUG have the Italian stuff removed, but will NUG be missing the Period stamps as they are expensive to replicate, are very hard to imprint in a Period fashion on hard modern barrel steels. One exception I know of is, was, "defarbed' revolvers done my John Zimmerman who replicated/simulated Colt or Remington markings.
Curt
How to “speak Italian” or “Why do the Italian torment us with bogus modern markings and stampings?”
History.
It has been said that time heals all wounds. And it might be so when it comes to reproduction Civil War firearms. Back in the 1950’s and 1960’s there was an international controversy over the talk of producing reproducing CW arms driven by the fear that the prestige as well as monetary value of original Civil War weapons would be severely affected by counterfeits and fakes that would flood the market using reproduction guns as the basis for the deception. The second argument was more emotional and harder to understand- that being that producing X number of reproductions would somehow drive down the value of Y number of originals out there known and unknown. And last but not least, was simple embarrassment that well known authorities, experts, and well known collectors
Would in the early years “get taken” by altered or faked Italian reproductions when such men should have been the last to be deceived.
Long Story Short. A sort of compromise was worked out. The first reproduction revolvers, and all of the subsequent reproductions, would NOT be exact “made again” return to production where the last original left off, nor an exact copy or clone. Instead, differences were ‘built in” the reproduction such as different dimensions, slightly off grip frame angle, modern screws, different number of rifling grooves, different rifling twist direction, different chamber size, different bore size. Or in the case of the first early Val Forgett “Colt’ Navy no cylinder safety pin rests or notch on the hammer nose to sit on them; or a different rear sight notch in the hammer nose. Etc., etc.
Originals.
Originals carry original company and factory markings. Reproductions almost never do because they are made as “copies” or ‘reproductions’ of historical firearms by others such as the “Italians” often because the guns are no longer being made and the patents have expired. Or the company has long ceased to exist.
One exception is “Colt” Colts. Setting aside obvious observations such as Uberti made parts, assembled by Iver Johnson, and marketed as Colts by modern-day Colt… the Italians cannot use “propriety” names and logos of existing companies such as Colt, Remington, Smith & Wesson, or Winchester for their reproductions of historic arms. Colt recognizes 2nd Generation guns as theirs. Not so much the 3rd Generation and Signature Series. But yet, both are “proprietary” to Colt and made “under license” for Colt so these are the only reproductions that carry true Colt markings/stampings.
Once Upon a Time, and still true for all but the more historical and authenticity minded, this was even an issue as shooters, hobbyists, and even reenactors could care less what original markings were missing or what modern bogus, spurious, or otherwise distracting stampings were on their reproductions.
Reproductions.
Italian reproduction makers have been fairly consistent with the type and display of their modern day stampings although they do vary a little over time and even among the same maker. Italian firearm laws
Dictate certain things as perhaps does fears of lawsuits and litigation warnings.
Most of the stampings on Italian reproduction firearms mirror the same requirements as on their modern cartridge firearms. These are also needed for export and import. While laws in the U.S. are not the same, we have certain federal and state laws that see blackpowder replicas of antique firearms as non-guns and not firearms. However, different states and localities do sometimes. Anyways, the modern stampings are needed to produce a legal firearm in Italy (black powder p[roof testing and overall firearm inspection proof for example) and to allow it to be exported/imported into the USA by a number of importers/vendors under mass or individual contracts.
By and large, the main Italian reproduction firearms one will see are Euroarms Italia S.r.L. America, , Aldo Uberti S.r.L Pedersoli, ArmiSport, Armi San Paolo S.r.L (1973-2001), F.LLL (Fratelli) Pietta, Palmetto, and the defunct Armi San Marco.. These makers typically use a company logo device, logo and their name, or just their name or abbreviation of their name. Older guns NUG carry just a logo stamp but newer ones tend to carry a logo and a name. Some will add their location of “Made in Italy.” And due to lawsuits, some version of “Blackpowder Only” or “Use Black Powder Only?” And, often times, for those who cannot figure it out. A calibre “warning” or bore size.
Company logs. Uberti uses the muzzle view of a Colt Navy with a “U” inside the bore. Pedersoli uses a lower case opposed “d” and “p” for Davide Pedersoli. Armi Sport uses an upper case “A” and “C” for Armi Chiappa taken from founder Rino Chiappa’s last name). Armi San Paolo uses an upper case “D” next to a “G” over another “G” for the three founders- Doninelli, Grassi, and Gazzola. Pietta uses the upper case letters “DAP” in a sideways diamond. Palmetto uses a palmetto tree inside of a circle. Armi san Marco will use their name or the initials "ASM."
First is the code for the year of manufacture. I have posted the chart here before, so it should be available through the SEARCH feature or versions are to be found online. In brief,
They are two alphabet letters starting in 1958 with “AA” in a box, then continuing through the “BB” range in 1992 by advancing the second letter until the alphabet is used up then changing the first letter.
Next come two proofs. The first is a blackpowder proof done by the Gardone proofing house. It is a star surrounded by eight “lands and grooves’ over the capital letter “PN” (Polvere Nera or Black Powder) or rarely besides the latters.
The second is the firearm inspection proof of Gardone which is the same star and lands/grooves (aka “wreath”) over a crest consisting of hammer, anvil, and crossed bayoneted rifles. All Italian made firearms are inspected and “proofed” and receive the second Gardone stamp.
And last is the importer’s name and or names and location. Various vendors will contract or negotiate for reproductions with more or less Quality Control” in order to be able to sell them at their business model needed price. Often, NUG, the imported will have the gun stamped with their own company name and location- say “Dixie Gun Works” or Navy Arm Co, Ridgefield N.J., USA” etc. As a result, some lads think they have a Dixie or Navy Arms made gun when in fact it is Italian made say by Pietta or Uberti and just imported by Dixie or Navy Arms. This can be important as one can bypass say the “Dixie Gun Works, Union City, TN” type barrel stamp of a Uberti Uberti say revolver rather than a “Dixie/Uberti” revolver. Or paying for the higher standards and QC of say a Cimarron Firearms Company import where they contract for “minimal modern stampings or having them stamped in less visible locations such as under the barrel of a revolver hidden by the loading lever or inside the trigger guard cut out hidden when the trigger guard is in place.
So. On say a repro Colt or Remington revolver, one will expect to find the following.
1. In the right hand side of the frame, the date code, the Gardone BP proof, and the Gardone firearm inspection stamp.
2. In the barrel in front of the cylinder, the same date code, the Gardone BP proof, and the Gardone firearm inspection stamp.
3. On lower price guns, the maker’s logo and name/location and blackpowder and calibre warning on top of the barrel where the Period makers’ name would be. If there is a USA importers name and location, the Italian info may be stamped under the barrel or on the side.
4. Italian firearm identification aka “serial the date code, the Gardone BP proof, and the Gardone firearm inspection stamp.
5. The Italian firearm identification number or “serial” number. For revolver NUG on the bottom of the barrel unit and at the front of the frame in front of the trigger guard. A semi nice touch as that is where they are on original Colt revolvers but the size and style of the font is not Period. These are needed by the Italians to make a firearm, as well as to be able to export it say to the USA (The USA has no proof houses or proofing system, and has a joint "self policing" done by each maker themselves.)
The same appear on Italian reproduction rifles, muskets, rifle-muskets, and rifled muskets. NUG, typically with the Italian makers name and/or US importer’s name on the barrel top. And the date code, the Gardone V. T. BP proof, the Gardone firearm inspection stamps, and manufactures’ firearm ID or serial number down at the breech’s left hand side where the US proofs are on originals.
Pretty much so, sometimes one can pay more for say a revolver because it will not have all of the bogus stampings, or have they "more hidden" and in less "obtrusive" locations. Some argue that the presence of no stamps is a larger negative than the absence of Period stamps or markings. But, it gets muddied a bit as the higher end importers seem to be having their company logos stamping in more Period fonts and to a shallow depth in the metal so as to be less obvious especially to Men of a Certain Age or greater, or those needed reading glasses to actually read the text to tell it is not the correct Period version.
Guns assembled from kits will NUG lack much of this. Although some carry the Gardone BP proof, and the Gardone firearm inspection stamp on the barrel.
And, of course, (so-called) defarbed guns will have the bogus modern stampings removed and in the case of longarms often replaced with a universal version of the Period U.S. proofs.
“De-farbed’ revolvers will NUG have the Italian stuff removed, but will NUG be missing the Period stamps as they are expensive to replicate, are very hard to imprint in a Period fashion on hard modern barrel steels. One exception I know of is, was, "defarbed' revolvers done my John Zimmerman who replicated/simulated Colt or Remington markings.
Curt
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