Heavy Marine Cloth

[wrfabus]

While going through an old issue of Military Images, there is a passage on zouave uniforms that mentions the uniform in question was made of "heavy marine cloth." Can anyone enlighten me on what heavy marine cloth is when it comes to uniforms of the period?

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

What is the context?

[wrfabus]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

John,

Thanks for the response.
The context was the soldier in question was reporting how they had a clothier in Philadelphia make their zouave uniforms out of heavy marine cloth, the jacket, vest, and trowsers. It was passage by a member of the 72nd PA Zouaves. I was just wondering what heavy marine cloth is as it pertains to a uniform.

Thanks,
Bill Fabus

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

My only guess is a canvas or sail cloth.

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

I wonder if "Marine Cloth" could be a bastardization of "Merino Cloth"

The use of the term "cloth" makes me think of some sort of wool.

Merino did exist in our period of interest and is defined as follows:

Merino -A breed of sheep, and the name of a fine woolen yarn – possibly worsted mixed with cotton – or a fabric made from such yarn.

I would think that merino would be more acceptable for use in manufacturing uniforms than canvas or sailcloth

[Barclay]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

Another possibility to chew on - reference to dark blue fabric used for U.S. Marine uniforms.

The Marine uniform regulations, The Uniform and Dress of the United States Marine Corps - October, 1859, gave all hands except musicians, a dark blue double-breasted frock coat for a full dress uniform.

I am not sure what type of fabric was utilized (i.e. kersey, broadcloth, etc.).

A long shot idea to be sure, but this is just my couple of cents,

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

I think it could mean either heavy dark blue broadcloth, or canvas sailcloth. There are several accounts of 49ers using sailcloth for worktrousers, most notably Levi Strauss.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

Can anyone enlighten me on what heavy marine cloth is when it comes to uniforms of the period?

To add to examples of the usage, in an April 1895 article published in the Otsego Republican newspaper, Gen. Delevan Bates mentions the attire of the wartime 95th Pennsylvania. The emphasis is mine:

"Well, the 95th officers were a lot of jolly good fellows, and many were the pleasant gatherings at their headquarters when the troops were in camp. Another difference between them and us was the uniform. - They were a zouave regiment. Let me try to describe how they looked, and let each comrade recall the past and see how their memories agree with mine: Jacket of marine cloth, sacque pattern, open rounded at the waist and trimmed with scarlet braid with a row of brass buttons on each side; flannel overshirt with small silver-plated buttons; pants with pleated waist, full length, but not quite as wide as the regular zouave style; leather leggings reaching nearly to the knees; McClellan cap, trimmed with scarlet braid."

As pure conjecture, (danger, danger) I can't help but wonder if these clothing descriptions mean the color "marine," such as "aqua-marine," rather than the sturdy closely woven cotton or linen canvas in marine (nautical) applications, which as John pointed out in an earlier post is a logical first choice. Additionally, and this is a stretch for the CW, but "marine cloth" also can mean an indigo dyed denim, which was in use in the US Army in the 1930s and early 1940s as a uniform fabric for Coast Artillery.

Charles Heath

[TheFenian]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

As pure conjecture, (danger, danger) I can't help but wonder if these clothing descriptions mean the color "marine," such as "aqua-marine," rather than the sturdy closely woven cotton or linen canvas in marine (nautical) applications, which as John pointed out in an earlier post is a logical first choice. Additionally, and this is a stretch for the CW, but "marine cloth" also can mean an indigo dyed denim, which was in use in the US Army in the 1930s and early 1940s as a uniform fabric for Coast Artillery.

Charles Heath[/QUOTE]

Just to add my little bit to this thread, it appears that the sailcloth/canvas is probably the most accurate. I did a quick Google search and found several references to "marine cloth" the only picture I found was on a web site related to a famous clothing line named after a sport played on horseback. The item in question was referred to as being made from marine cloth and was definitely not an aquamarine or indigo color.

Bill Eiff

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

With Mr. Heath's quotation I would say that "marine" probably refers to the color rather than a special type of fabric. The fact that the General would describe the color of the jacket's trim and not the color of the jacket would seem odd, especially considering he goes into some detail in describing the uniform. I would think it would mean some type of wool fabric dyed in some sort of medium blue shade.

OK....well I should have done this in the first place, but I just looked in "Echoes of Glory" and they have both a jacket from the 95th Pa and the 72nd Pa and they are both constructed of a dark blue what looks like wool. A photograph 95th Pa hospital steward shows him with his jacket worn over an overshirt and there is a medium blue vest associated with the 72nd Pa. It is all on pages 140-141 in the Union Volume

[Charles Heath]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

Sometimes conjecture sparks thoughts, or causes some additional input from odd angles. On the surface, this post may cause this thread to get bumped to the sinks, but bear with the thinking outside the box for just a moment:

http://www.polo.com/cgi-bin/polo/polo/catalog/product_detail.jsp?cat_oid=-13463&ref_oid=68301

This is the Becky jacket Bill alluded to in a previous post. Nice model. Not a period image or garment, but definitely blue in color (pre-washed), and maybe even a denim or duck, which is back in fashion for men's clothing. If you survived that....

http://www.cuesight.com/ma8mar.html

Pool table cloth. Yes, a poly-wool blend pool table cloth from a maker in business since 1829. In terms of the Civil War, it means nothing, but it does suggest the color "marine" is still in use somewhere. It is also a name for a poker table cloth, and far wiser heads than I can tell the subtle difference between pool table and poker table cloth. In recent years, some CW era reproduction garment vendors have used this type of cloth as a substitute for wool broadcloth.

http://www.hard2buy4.co.uk/Home-and-Garden-Gifts/Ornaments-and-Furnishings/727/Egyptian-Face-Cloth-Marine-33cm-x-33cm/mlewis

This is an example of Marine as a color in toweling. It's an English type website as another example of marine as a color in the modern world. Now, none of this quick and easy info grabs prove anything beyond tantalizing clues, because to close this "marine cloth" mystery loop, it needs the infusion of some solid period documentation, and that would be awful fun to explore.

Just food for thought.

Charles Heath

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

As I have said before it could be dark blue broadcloth, as that is the material that sailors, both civilian and military of all nations, wore before during and after the period. Richard H. Dana speaks of this type of clothing in Two Years Before the Mast:

"Here, at anchor, and the only vessel, was a brig under Russian colors, from Asitka, in Russian America, which had come down to winter, and to take in a supply of tallow and grain, great quantities of which latter article are raised in the missions at the head of the bay. The second day after our arrival, we went on board the brig, it being Sunday, as a matter of curiosity; and there was enough there to gratify it. Though no larger than the Pilgrim, she had five or six officers, and a crew of between twenty and thirty; and such a stupid and greasy-looking set, I certainly never saw before. Although it was quite comfortable weather, and we had nothing on but straw hats, shirts, and duck trowsers, and were barefooted, they had, every man of them, double-soled boots, coming up to the knees, and well greased; thick woolen trowsers, frocks, waistcoats, pea-jackets, woolen caps, and everything in true Nova Zembla rig; and in the warmest days they made no change. The clothing of one of these men would weigh nearly as much as that of half our crew. They had brutish faces, looked like the antipodes of sailors, and apparently dealt in nothing but grease. They lived upon grease; eat it, drank it, slept in the midst of it, and their clothes were covered with it."

[Charles Heath]

Re: Heavy Marine Cloth

Here's a link to an October 1840 Wisconsin reference for marine cloth for evidently for use as a church or mission organ curtain:

http://search.ancestry.com/db-lhbum7689c/P468.aspx

A heavy weight fabric would certainly make sense in this application. Perhaps one of our fine clothiers will chime in with some additional references. That interesting Ancestry.com website could be well worth exploring for other completely unrelated snippets.

Charles Heath