Correct Hardee Hat

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

Would that be the mindset of utilizing common characteristics of known identified extant uniform hats to help us reach the conclusion on what a reproduction of a common army hat should look like?




I think you're possibly confused, please reread my post.



It's a theory based on surviving material culture, this really isn't a new idea...people called historians do it all the time.

Darrek Orwig

Darrek


"There are extant uniform hats out there with maroon sweatbands and a black paper label. However these are thought to be a late war contract and were likely not issued during the war as surviving examples are generally in almost mint condition and lack provenance."

I think I read your post the same way Mr Badget did. I feel the argument that "black or maroon dress hat sweat bands", "close or widely spaced buttons on fatigue blouses", "type 1 or 2 fatigue caps" etc. are early or late war is, based more on conjecture that true historical fact.

Please do not take peoples responses to your quotes personally. We are all trying to keep the discussion friendly and educational.

[KathyBradford]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

Mr. ************ has generously posted detailed photographs and dimensions of an original at the address below:

http://www.cwreenactors.com/dcforum/Howto/1742.html

It is truly an exquisite work of art.

[markmason]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

Is this hat in a public or private collection? Any idea of the contractor?

The Army Hat I am looking at right now sits in a collection at the Indianapolis Childrens Museum. A nice collection of artifacts resting in storage.

Thanks

[CitizenSoldier]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

Darrek


"There are extant uniform hats out there with maroon sweatbands and a black paper label. However these are thought to be a late war contract and were likely not issued during the war as surviving examples are generally in almost mint condition and lack provenance."

I think I read your post the same way Mr Badget did. I feel the argument that "black or maroon dress hat sweat bands", "close or widely spaced buttons on fatigue blouses", "type 1 or 2 fatigue caps" etc. are early or late war is, based more on conjecture that true historical fact.

Please do not take peoples responses to your quotes personally. We are all trying to keep the discussion friendly and educational.

Robert,
The extant uniform hats myself and other museum professionals whom I know have examined possessing maroon sweatbands and paper labels unfortunately lacked provenance. The paper labels of hats bearing those characteristics were also identical, which suggests possibly the same manufacturer.

All of the identified army issue hats that I know of have black japaned leather sweatbands and the surviving labels of those hats are black oilcloth from a number of different manufacturers.

With the above information, I don't feel someone is all too far off in believing the theory that uniform hats with maroon sweatbands may be a late war contract. However if you or someone else reading this knows of an actual veteran identified uniform hat possessing a maroon colored sweatband, I would be pretty interested in hearing about it. If they're out there it would be really cool to add them to my database.

It's my understanding that conjecture is a term reserved for guesswork, not a theory based off of the study of surviving material culture.

Darrek Orwig

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

Robert,
The extant uniform hats myself and other museum professionals whom I know have examined possessing maroon sweatbands and paper labels unfortunately lacked provenance. The paper labels of hats bearing those characteristics were also identical, which suggests possibly the same manufacturer.

All of the identified army issue hats that I know of have black japaned leather sweatbands and the surviving labels of those hats are black oilcloth from a number of different manufacturers.

With the above information, I don't feel someone is all too far off in believing the theory that uniform hats with maroon sweatbands may be a late war contract. However if you or someone else reading this knows of an actual veteran identified uniform hat possessing a maroon colored sweatband, I would be pretty interested in hearing about it. If they're out there it would be really cool to add them to my database.

It's my understanding that conjecture is a term reserved for guesswork, not a theory based off of the study of surviving material culture.

Darrek Orwig

Derrek

Thank you for your clarification.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

I called the Töjhusmuseet this morning and they, are supposed to give me a reply regarding the color of the sweatband of Dress Hat in there collection.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

I have a queston about this ''maroon'' color.

The images from the Indianapolis Children's Museum collection display a sweatband that appears to be OXBLOOD in color.

Oxblood is an ancient dye derived from boiling the roots of Dogwood.

It could be created chemically from iron-oxide and iodine as well.

I have run across the term Army Tan and Engish Tan for colors much like this as well.

Was MAROON the common term for this and similar colors during the period?

[Jarnagin]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

The name for the leather used in the sweat band of Hardee Hat is Russia. Russia came in both black and red. There are several ways to tell Russia leather. First was the smell, second is the color, and the third is the diamond shaped pattern found embossed in the surface. This is the only leather listed as having this style of embossing. The problem with Russia leather is that so few tanned the leather right and by the 1880’s it was all but forgotten, to become a footnote in history.

There is evidence that Russia leather sweatbands used in 1839 Wheel hats, and the band in the original Bell Crown hat from the 1820’s is made from blackened Russia leather.

This art was first discovered from present day Turkey in the late 1750’s and was very highly esteemed and mostly used in book binding. Although there has been no evidence that the Army requested this leather there is much evidence that it was used or an imitation of it was used in hats as sweat band; the fact that the leather was insect, mold and mildew resistance would make it great leather for sweat bands.

All of the Russia samples I have seen have been extremely thin and would be considered a book binding leather with thickness around 1oz.

This should not be confused with Morocco leather. Here is the definition of Morocco leather from the time of the Civil War.

Morocco Leather is often listed today as red leather but this is not true with the Morocco of the 1800's. The defining characteristic of this leather was that it was made from goat or kid skin. Imitation Morocco leather was sheep skin tanned in the same process. Morocco has a very unique grain surface (see picture at bottom of page), which is caused by the tanning process. The colors found in morocco leather are as follows, red, yellow, blue, bronze, purple, and black. For more information follow this link and to see the picture listed above.

http://www.jarnaginco.com/leather%20definitions%20index.htm

David Jarnagin

[coffee boiler]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

Thanks for the post David, I've often wondered about that diamon shape pattern.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

...the fact that the leather was insect, mold and mildew resistance would make it great leather for sweat bands.

Interesting, dogwood dyed red textiles are also rot, fungus and vermin resistant.

First was the smell...

What is the distinct odor?

[Jarnagin]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

Cochineal is listed as the coloring agent for Russia leather, (Proctor, in 1885, thought to be the father of modern leather chemistry) but it could also be Brazil wood or mater root. The colorant was set on the leather with the use of mordanting oil.

The smell comes from a combination of two different oils. I can mix them and have for a few friends upon request. The oils must be applied with water, in order to make them penetrate the fibers properly.

One of the oils is very old and was used in combination with madder root to dye the reds the Romans used in there clothing. Not only was the red important in Russia leather but it allowed the British to dye brighter reds cheaply and this explains the change in British uniforms from the 1750’s to the 1770’s. This oil was used heavily in the dyeing of red in fabrics until the late 1850 when the first aniline dyes showed up and destroyed the trade. The odd thing is the clothing industry embraced the new dyes but not the leather industry. The leather industry would not move to aniline dyes until after the invention of the “Direct Cotton Dyes”, in 1885.

The first coal-tar dye was mauve and it was invented in 1856 by W.H. Perkins.

David Jarnagin :wink_smil

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

I called the Töjhusmuseet this morning and they, are supposed to give me a reply regarding the color of the sweatband of Dress Hat in there collection.

I called again this morning, and ran into a bit of a wall as far as translation. I was having trouble getting my question across in either Swedish or English, but I will keep trying. If any of the Danes on this board wouldnt mind stepping up to the plate, your help would be greatly apreciated. Here is their number [+ 45] 33 116037

[tenthmo]

Re: Correct Hardee Hat

About 1982, I purchased a Hardee Hat from F. Burgess Company. I still own it to this day. I believe they make it heavier and thicker than what is acceptable/ correct today.