Two band Enfields

[yatman]

What would it take to convert a reproduction Enfield P1858 Navy rifle into a 1856 Army rifle?:

[GenuineInformation]

Re: Two band Enfields

In short, a lot.

The P1856 Army rifle had a 33" version of the P53's three-groove, regular profile barrel, as opposed to the P1858's heavy-profile, five-groove rifled barrel. In addition to the basic stock reshaping, you'd also need to swap out the repro P1858 Naval Rifle's brass butt plate, lock plate escutcheons, trigger guard, and stock endcap with iron hardware.

It would be easier to transform a reproduction P1858 Naval Rifle into a P1860 rifle, which has the same iron hardware as the P1856 but shares the P1858's heavy-profile 5 groove barrel.

Ask Andrew Jerram about it. He has converted one with iron hardware castings from The Rifle Shoppe.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Two band Enfields

You can see a few issues with this comparison between original P56, P58 and a Euro repro. http://imgur.com/a/pP5X7

[yatman]

Re: Two band Enfields

Jimmayo, Thank you for the link, but I am confused. In the comparison photo there are three rifles, and they all appear to have brass trigger guards. I assume that the rest of the furniture is brass also(?). Aren't Army rifles suppose to have iron furniture (butt plate, trigger guard, nose cap, stock escutcheons)?

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Thanks for the reply. So, roughly speaking, it would be more practical to convert to a P1860, and NOT a P1856. Maybe practical isn't the word, but more authentic.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Two band Enfields

These are the Navy versions and hardware was brass. I haven't found an original Army rifle with the iron hardware within my price range yet. The comparison were mainly to show differences between stock and barrels of the two originals compared to the Euro Arms.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Two band Enfields

Hallo!

In brief.....

What distinguished the P1858 Naval Rifle from the other rifles was its brass (versus iron) furniture, the locating of the rear sling swivel on the trigger guard bow, and the use of a five groove heavy barrel.

One occasionally sees the P1858 Short Rifle (aka the P1856 No. 2 aka "Bar on Band). Its the odd ball in the series, its nose cap coming to within 1 1/4 inch of the muzzle and having a wider upper band pinned to the stock that holds the lug for the sabre bayonet.

Next is the short run production of the P1860 Short Rifle which is essentially a P1856 SR but with the new Baddeley bands and the heavy, five groove, fast twist barrel of the P1858 Naval Rifle.
(Some folks are divided on its actual use in the ACW, much like the 4th Model RM.)

Last is the P1861 Short Rifle likely produced only at Enfield RSAF as part of the "upgrade" to interchangeable parts and the Baddeley barrel bands. Like the P1853 4t Model RM's, these appear to have been stored and went to be Snider Rifles.

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Two band Enfields

It is a different model rifle. On some level you really just have to admit the P58 Naval rifle can't be done up as a P56 properly, not even cosmetically. I like what you are thinking, but you won't be satisfied with with what you end up with in the end. Best plan is to find an original P56 in firing condition.

[yatman]

Re: Two band Enfields

Thank you for your input. Yes, finding an original P56 in firing condition would be the best route to take, but converting would be more affordable on my budget. And there is something about shooting a 150 year old gun that is irksome to me, not safety but preservation of history. As the man once said, "You can get anything you want, as long as you can afford it."
PS - I liked your book "The Civil War Musket:" Very informative. Hey! While I got you here; question - Did the Birmingham Arms Trade make brass mounted Enfield army rifles for the North & South, i.e. rear sling swivel mounted on the butt and not on the front of the trigger guard?

[yatman]

Re: Two band Enfields

Wellll being the hardheaded Alsatian that I am, I took the plunge. I got iron lockplate screw ferrules from Lodgewood, iron buttplate, trigger guard and nose cap from The Rifle Shoppe, rear swivel from S & S Firearms. Took a little bit of hand fitting and metal polishing but it is done. Am I 100% satisfied? No, but I am satisfied enough, considering my abilities.....and finances. It makes for a fairly decent representation of an iron mounted Enfield two bander rifle, it replicates a weapon that was actually used during the war, and it stands out as unique in a forest of three banders. And I got a rifle that few other people have (a way to express my individuality). I am sure there will be some who will decry its lack of complete authenicity, but from what I have read of the treads in this form just about all of the reproduction guns come up short in one way or another.
Irony of ironies, after it was completed further reseach revealed that there were two band Enfield used in the War of Northern Aggression that had brass furniture like a Navy rifle, but a with a rear mounted butt swivel like an Army rifle. Go figure.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Two band Enfields

Irony of ironies, after it was completed further reseach revealed that there were two band Enfield used in the War of Northern Aggression that had brass furniture like a Navy rifle, but a with a rear mounted butt swivel like an Army rifle. Go figure.

Good for you. Now there are at least two iron mounted Enfields in the reenacting community. Many people have never seen an original so be ready to answer some questions.
Also see the top rifle in the posted stock comparison in my earlier post. Note the trigger guard...no sling hole. The rear butt swivel is long gone on that gun.

Now you have to do is break the bayonet lug off yours. Just kidding. It seems like at least half of the original 2 band models I have seen have the lug broken off. I suspect that some soldiers did this so they could get rid of the heavy bayonet.

[yatman]

Re: Two band Enfields

Jim, Pat yourself on the back. It was your photos that prompted me to do further research about the brass mounted army rifles, or is it navy rifles with army swivels? In any case. I saw what you meant by the relative barrel thickness between historic weapons and the reproductions. As far as I could tell the only way to have rectified that situation would have been to either built the barrel up or lathe it down, neither of which would have been practical. I comforted myself with the thought that most reproduction Civil War era rifle and musket barrels are much thicker than the orginals.
Yes, I have thought of that, breaking off the bayonet lug. Sabre bayonets do make a gun very muzzle heavy.

[pipthelimey]

Re: Two band Enfields

And yes, there were some brass mounted rifles with the sgt's sling swivel. (Behind the trigger guard.)

Birmingham Small Arms Trade were pretty mercenary and the confederacy wasn't super picky. I've seen a few rifles that were cobbled together from a mixture of parts. Check out the last rifle in "Confederate Enfield."

[Jimmayo]

Re: Two band Enfields

So who is going to take on the project to build a bar on band? That ought to be a challenge.

[Dbackfed]

Re: Two band Enfields

Question about the upper barrel band. There is a screw that connects the swivel, but it also has what I believe to be a pin? To remove the upper barrel band, would you simply use a tumbler punch and pop out this pin? I thought I would ask before I try it on mine.

[Cotton Trash]

Re: Two band Enfields

Jason, The man who can answer this question has a post above Mr.Mayo he knows everything concerning an Enfield Andrew Jerram give him a shout can answer your question.