Cartridge packages

[marlin teat]

Re: Cartridge roll and packing paper

I believe (as a former restaurant-owner) the deli paper referred to is unbleached parchment paper. This can be found in the baking section of many kitchen supplies store. The paper has about the same thickness as newsprint, is light brown in color, and has the sheen on one side.

If it's not what you're looking for, it's great for wrapping rations!

[Pvt. Myers]

Re: Cartridge roll and packing paper

I believe (as a former restaurant-owner) the deli paper referred to is unbleached parchment paper. This can be found in the baking section of many kitchen supplies store. The paper has about the same thickness as newsprint, is light brown in color, and has the sheen on one side.

If it's not what you're looking for, it's great for wrapping rations!

Thanks pards! I've ordered both newsprint and unbleached parchment paper and will try both.

Your most obedient servant,

Ron Myers
1st US Infantry Co. D

[ChrisM(armyguy)]

Re: Cartridge roll and packing paper

another type of paper that is very close to original catridge paper and packing paper is the 3m craft paper. it is sold in large rolls at walmart or at any office supply store. if you want further information on this, there is a good article on the subject in the columbia rifle's research compendium on the subject of reproduction cartridges(in specific the st louis arsenal) Hope this helps.



Chris mattingly
still waiting for word on fun in the sun

[IowaYank]

Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Hello. I have several questions here concerning ammunition and arsenal packs.

My first one is concerning Sharps cartridges. I am currently trying to make more authentic cartridges for my sharps. I figure in my infantry impression I tie all of my cartridges, why not have extremely authentic cartridges for my cavalry impression?? Looking through examples of original sharps cartridges from books in my very limited library, I have seen no paper sharps cartridges with a tail. One end is rounded off and the other has the bullet. How can I reproduce this??? I can get the rounded off section made easily with a hollow tube, but how should I close off the top where the bullet should be without putting a tail on the cartridge??

My second question is for pistol cartridge arsenal packs. I know they were issued in both the pasteboard and paper wrapped arsenal pack(like infantry rounds were wrapped), but it seems to me the pasteboard type was much more common. In fact, I dont know if I have personally seem the paper wrapped arsenal packs for pistol, but I have heard from others more knowledgeable than myself that they exist. Right now the paper wrapped type is what I am using for my arsenal packs, but I would rather use pasteboard packs. Does anyone know of a source for those type of pasteboard boxes suiteable for the packs??? And does anyone know of a source for pack labels for the .44 army revolver?? I know sullivan press makes pistol labels but they are for the .36 navy revolver.

Thank you for your time.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Dan,
The problem with an authentic Sharps cartridge is the bullet. Paper, skin or linen cartridge tubes were filled with powder then had a bullet inserted into the open end and tied on. There is just no good way to safely duplicate this.
When I make my cartridges for the Sharps, I simply twist the open end and tightly close it. If someone has a manner to safely replicate the appearance of the bullet that is 100% safe, then I too am open to the suggestion.
As for .44 caliber labels, I've attached one I copied from an original.
Dave Myrick

[neocelt]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Gents,

"The problem with an authentic Sharps cartridge is the bullet. Paper, skin or linen cartridge tubes were filled with powder then had a bullet inserted into the open end and tied on. There is just no good way to safely duplicate this." Au contraire!

Years ago, my unit tackled this problem and came up with a method of molding Sharps ringtail bullets using a type of foam that's similar to insulating foam (although that's not what it was, as this stuff came in cans and was a two-part system--a base and a catalyst). The resulting "bullets" had a hard outer skin, but only required 10 lbs. of pressure to crush (you could actually do it by pinching them between thumb and forefinger really hard). They simply turned to dust when fired, leaving no more fouling than the powder itself. We painted them to look like lead and made up cartridges using nitrated "flash paper" (you can make this yourself). The result was a pretty authentic-looking cartridge with an exposed bullet--I know they caused serious consternation with inspecting officers (that is, until we dropped one on their palm...)!

Good luck!

[hardeeflag]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Nick,

Do you have any more details on these cartridges? Sharps were carried by the Federal forces in my area. It would be nice to create a nice sharps cartidge for displays and events.

[IowaYank]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Nick, are you referring to "Great Stuff"??? It comes in a can and is yellowish/orange. It sprays out a semi-liquid form and expands and hardens as it drys.Never thought of that before. Are you just spraying that into a sharps ringtail bullet mold???Sounds like a great idea as long as they truely do completely dissinagrate.

Anyone have any leads on pasteboard boxes for the pistol rounds???

Thanks

[IowaYank]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Nick, One problem I thought of, if you are using the same "Great Stuff" that I am thinking of, it takes several hours to set and harden up. Is this the same foam you are using? I know there are several other brands out there, maybe others have a shorter hardening time?? Seems like it would take forever to make any number of bullets if it is going to take several hours for each individual bullet to set up. Plus, I know great stuff can harden up in the can if you dont use it all in a timely manner.

Trying to clarifiy a few things.
Thanks

[neocelt]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Sorry guys, but this was about 20 years ago, and I simply can't recall the details. What I CAN tell you is that the foam was NOT the canned foam insulation material ("Great Stuff" being one brand)--more like the foam used to make surfboard blanks. Another dude in the unit did the research and procurement of the foam. All I know is that he got it from an industrial supply house in L.A. and it came in generic, unmarked cans (like paint cans). As I said, it was a two-part system, and you had to work fast because once you added the catalyst, the liquid foamed up to many times its original volume and began to set up almost immediately. It only took about a drop for each bullet and we only had a single cavity mold--slow, messy business I can assure you, but we thought the results were well worth the effort. If I were to do it again, I'd surely invest in several gang molds! I do recall that this supplier had foam with different densities and "skin" hardness factors; indeed, it was the supplier who rated the "crushing factor" of the skin of this particular foam at 10 pounds. We settled on this as a good working hardness for our project, as we needed a skin that was hard enough to withstand normal handling and cartridge box jostling, but would still be assured to turn to harmless dust when the weapon was fired. We did LOTS of test-firing to verify that no particles of any kind left the muzzle. You'll have to do your own homework on this one I'm afraid... I would forewarn you to be sure that the foam you use will crush to dust under heat and pressure and not become a glob of burning plastic goo!

If someone pursues this project, I trust he will share his odyssey with the rest of us. Incidentally, these "bullets" might also be useful in manufacturing the British Enfield cartridges (with the inverted bullet). Some enterprising individual, unit or sutler could easily package these bullets with the flash paper, a package wrapper with label, and instructions for making and packaging the cartridges to help subsidize the cost of the operation. Hmmmmm...

Again, bon chance mes amis!

[IowaYank]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Anyone else have any ideas about the foam??? I would really like to try this.

Thanks

[Mike Nickerson]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

It sounds like the two part foam used in boats for flotation. It comes in two equal size cans in liquid form. It expands shortly after being mixed. It could be poured into bullet molds if some form of non-stick coating was applied (car wax might work) to keep the foam from sticking to the mold. It expands by a better than 25:1 ratio, so as Nick said, just a few drops per bullet would get the job done.

The two part flotation foam is available at any large marine supply store.

Mike Nickerson

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Hallo!

Twice as many CW era Sharps cartridges were made by Federal arsenals versus purchase from private makers- so they come in some "variations."
In brief and to over-generalize, there are nitrated paper and nitrated linen cartridge papers, as well as a several styles of both "ring tail" and the more common cast or pressed non ring tail bullets. (Plus some odd collodion covered cartridge types instead of paper or linen cases). Previous to the CW, the army cartridges were tied paper ones and refered to in period Ordnance writings as the "Old Model" cartridge.
As shared, some of the cartridges with "ring tails" were secured with cord, but the more common arsenal method used small devices (called cartridge chokers) that "crimped" the top of the cartridge into a groove in the bullet.
And as shared, some had arsenal made folded tails, but most had a paper case with an inserted paper base, or linen case with an inserted paper base.

Once can use nitrate dpaper as well as nitrated fine linen, and using a punch, insert and glue linen as well as paper "disks" or inserted squares to a rolled cartridge body. (I have also used this method for Smith carbines).
(One problem with modern pulp paper is that it tears more easily that CW period "rag" paper, and makes a more fragile cartridge. Some lads use modern cigarette paper, hair curling papers, and magicians' flash paper instead, and weigh the fragility against the risk of smouldering paper remains in their breech, etc.,)
And in the absence of a Sharps' "cartridge choker," simply glue the edge of the cartridge body to the bullet.

In 1860 Sharps said:

DIRECTIONS FOR MAKING BALL CARTRIDGES

Cartridge paper or linen cloth, cu tin strips on one and three-eighth inches for the Army size ball, and two inches for the 60 and 90 ball, and of length sufficient to wind twice around the larger end of the cartridge stick and form a cylinder, securing the end with gluten or paste, withdraw the stick, place a piece of bank-note paper or gauze three-fourths of an inch square on the reverse end of the stick, form it over the end, apply the gluten or paste to the part that overlies the circumference of the stick, and insert in the cylinder, forcing it to the rear end and withdraw the stick. When the cylinder is dry, charge with sixty grains of powder and insert the rear end of the ball to the ring thereon, moistened with the adhesive preparation, and choke the cloth or paper into the ring of the ball.

Perhaps oddly enough, the 1861 Ordnance Manual describes the Sharps carbine cartridge as being made with a paper case from a trapezoid with height 3 inches, long base 3.25 inches, short base 2.25 inches an dwith a smaller separate powder tube. Whether the bullet was tied or glued or crimped to the cartridge body, it needed to be FOLDED closed. At any rate, the Manual was very rarely followed...

For talks and presentations, one can make "authentic" looking (if one does not wish to make "actual" live Sharps rounds) using bullets cast from Sharps moulds that various companies make, and make them inert by using ground charcoal or better yet model railroad ballast (that looks very clsoe to FF powder).

For reenacting, most lads I know do not care to invest large amounts of time and effort into "more authentic" Sharps cartridges and simply replace the length that would be the bullet with a longer cartridge body fileld with corm meal or Cream of Wheat to take of the space in the chamber that would have been occupied by a live bullet.

And I won't tell the story of a friend who cast bullets in wax and painted them- figuring the heat of the firing would turn the wax to liquid and vaporize it in the barrel. The first time out, at a parade, he loaded one and aimed at an overhead street light. The wax bullet shattered the glass, and sprinkled glass down on the marchers. He did not try it again...

Curt
NM1859 Sharps Rifle user

[IowaYank]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

This may be turning into more work than it is actually worth, but I will keep trying for a while longer. Does anyone know if the boat flotation foam will dissinagrate when fired?? Looking at the foam on websites it seems to me as if they wont. Several sites say they will withstand 40 psi. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks

[neocelt]

Is authenticity worth all the trouble?

Dan,

You're the one who said you wanted "to make more authentic cartridges for my sharps". Did you think it would be easy? So you've done a cursory internet search and come up with the wrong foam. I've already told you that the foam comes in varying density and "skin" hardness, so perhaps you'll have to look a little further. And once you've located the appropriate foam, you'll have to invest some time, money and effort in the project. Whether this is "more work than it is actually worth" is up to you. In my experience, the quality of one's impression correlates directly to the amount of work he invests in it. Of course, your mileage may vary...

Cheers,