Cartridge packages

[WestTN_reb]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Bump....

I ran across this thread and thought I'd revive it. In the posts, arsenal packs for pistol cartridges are mentioned. Does anyone have any specifics on them? Specifically, calibers issued and whether paper or pasteboard packs were more common for those calibers.
FYI: I have a 1849 Pocket model I'm wanting to press into service, so that's the reason for the question.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Bump....

I ran across this thread and thought I'd revive it. In the posts, arsenal packs for pistol cartridges are mentioned. Does anyone have any specifics on them? Specifically, calibers issued and whether paper or pasteboard packs were more common for those calibers.
FYI: I have a 1849 Pocket model I'm wanting to press into service, so that's the reason for the question.

The right view shows one example of a issued box of pistol cartridges. In this you can see the box and some loose cartridges. These are identified to a Michigan Officer but I can't find the ID on the computer now. Some of the loose bullets in the big box are post war. There is a box of period .44 cal in with the rest. Hope this helps a bit. I will post a picture of a linen sharps round later.

[Andrew German]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Greetings:

Dean Thomas's books (I have his Ready...Aim..Fire! Small Arms Ammunition in the Battle of Gettysburg) have scale photos of representative ammunition and boxes or paper packs. It appears that, for the Colt .44, Sage seamless skin cartridges in a drilled wooden block with paper wrapper were quite common. I have some fragments of a block (with label attached)that was in a revolver box when it was hit by a pistol shot.

For an early war impression, I made up some Bartholow blue pasteboard boxes, which have a simple, easily represented label.

It's not digitized, but I have a pattern for an original Sharps pateboard box. The box is 2.138" x 2.725", and the sides are 1.103" high. The cover (of a little bit lighter material) is 2.209" x 2.830, and the sides are .435".

Hope this helps,
Andrew German

[Jimmayo]

Re: Ammunition and arsenal pack questions

Here is a pic of a linen sharps cartridge complete with cotton fuzz.

[Parault]

Arsenal Labels

I have sevaral questions concerning the cartridge labels.

I am sure most of the Confederate units used the arsenals closest to them.
ANV used Richmond and some others. Trans Mississippi used Augusta and others.

I have looked in the search area and other websites,and can find no information about which arsenal was used the most.

Which arsenal was the largest in the South?

What exactly did the Richmond Arsenal Labels look like?

I have purchased labels from the approved vendors and found no Richmond Labels. Where can I purchase the Richmond Labels?

The unit that I am a part of is actually an ANV unit, but we are here in the Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma area. I want to use the appropriate,or most used arsenal labels for my impression. I actually go an extra step and place my rounds in arsenal wrapped packaging. I don't like to see people pull out a Zip-Loc freezer bag with loose rounds. I understand keeping your powder dry,but when you are at a L/H,or at an event that you can take the extra time to improve your impression, keep the freezer bags hidden.

Thank you for helping me find the right place to go for this information.

[Tom Ezell]

Re: Arsenal Labels

The major ordnance depots and ammunition laboratories set up by the Confederate War Department were at Richmond, Virginia; Fayetteville, North Carolina; Charleston, South Carolina; Augusta, Savannah, and Macon, Georgia; Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee; and Montgomery, Alabama; New Orleans and Baton Rouge, Louisiana; Little Rock, Arkansas, and San Antonio, Texas. The shifting fortunes of the Confederacy soon compelled the abandonment of some of these, and from time to time others were added to the list, as, for instance, Columbia, South Carolina; Atlanta and Columbus, Georgia; Selma, Alabama, and Jackson, Mississippi. Of these, Atlanta and Selma became most important. While these were ordnance depots per the regulations, nearly all includied an "ammunition laboratory" for the manufacture and assembly of small arms cartridges.

Theoretically, the army could draw weapons and munitons from any of these depots. Realistically, the rickety rail system and uncertain control of the waterways made it more likely that the various departments drew from regional or nearby depots.

Augusta, by the way, had not only the ordnance depot/arsenal but also the Augusta Powder Works, which was the source of most of the Confederacy's propellants and rifle powder.

Thomas's work on small arms ammunition, Round Ball to Rimfire... is the most promising place to start in researching ammunition production and packaging, though it focuses on the Federal system.

[Parault]

Re: Arsenal Labels

Thank You Tom

That helps answer most of my questions.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Arsenal Labels

Hallo!

I have no "Richmond Arsenal" or "C.S. Laboratory Richmond Arsenal" label images to post but, in brief and to over-generalize...

Richmond tpyically used ink stamps directly on the bundle wrapper irself, or glued on printed labels under or over the string.

Images occassionally appear in some books, such as Richmond Arsenal page 54-55 of William Davis' THE FIGHTING MEN OF THE CIVIL WAR. Or ECHOES OF GLORY, Confederacy... Columbus Ordnance Depot page 33, or Charleston Arsenal, page 39.

Curt

[1stMaine]

Re: Arsenal Labels

Comrade,

Arsenal labels are a "yeah, but...." sort of thing. Although there are many labels out there, a great many that i have seen were "modifications" of an earlier label of dubious orgin. I believe that the use of these items in most situations is well overplayed.

For example, although known examples of Federal arsenal labels are noted, by the time production ramps up, the use of labels starts to fall off, with many extant examples have no label, nor signs of a label ever having been affixed. The packing boxes that the bundles cam in were marked with quantity & type of ammunition, and the date and place of manufacture. This was deemed adequate for most useages.

Additonally, many CS examples either do not have a label, or have an ink stanp similar to the label stamped onto the bundle wrapper before the rounds are wrapped. This would require you to locate a specific example and have a rubber ink stamp made up (not terrible hard to do) and then stamp each of the bundle wrappers before proceeding to make the bundles.

Are there examples of original bundles with arsenal labels or stamps? Yup, and also extant COMMERCIAL ammunition wrappers with both labels and stamps, although the stamp or printed bundle wrapper is much more common than the label. These commercial rounds were purchassed by the US Ordnance Department, and are usually for the "experimental" types of rounds, such as water-prrof self-consuming rounds for 54 & 58 calibre weapons, etc.

Having said that, a very large percentage of extant ammunition shaows no labels, stamps, or signs of ever being otherwise marked, so you are well within authenticity to have such bundles in your cartridge box, regardless of where you are drawing from.

Respects,

[Tarheel]

Re: Arsenal Labels

You may wish to consider the purchase of an excellent book on the subject. "Percussion Ammunition Packets. Union, Confederate & European", John J. Malloy, Dean S. Thomas, & Terry A. White. Published by Thomas Publications, Gettysburg, Pa., 2003. I'm not sure if this is still in print but I have found it to be a highly informative reference source, particularly for the Confederate Arsenals (very good photographs of Richmond Arsenal packs!!!)
Patrick Reardon,
The Lazy Jack Mess, UK

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Arsenal Labels

Hallo!

Just an aside...

Yes, it also raises the archeological/historical question as to a misrepresented or distorted artifact pool.
Meaning, people being people... plain arsenal bundles are less noteworthy, collectable, or "price-worthy" as compared to the "marked" stuff... ;) :(

(And yes, with few exceptions, a great deal of repro arsenal bundle wrappers were the result of the pre Computer mid and late 1980's where enterprising lads (and vendors)simply took preWar labels, xeroxed them, and made cut-and-paste changes such as war time dates to feed the demand of more "authentic" or "hardcore" lads in the Way Back Daze.

Curt

[1stMaine]

Re: Arsenal Labels

Curt,

That's exactly where all the "Kennebec Arsenal" labels came from. Although there was, in fact, a Kennebec Arsenal in Augusta, Maine, (which should not be confused with the Augusta Arsenal of Augusta, Georgia, despite some revisionsit reenactor's remarks), that arsenal, to my knowledge, used no labels or ink stamps to identify the cartridge bundles it produced. the only marking I have ever seen from that arsenal are on a packing box in the Maine State Museum.

Those "Kennebed Arsenal" labels were, in fact, produced by me using an old "Augusta Arsenal" label, with white out and dry-transfer lettering, and a good photo-copier. They were done back in the late 70's, to satisfy a demand by some Federal reenactors, and have since been reproduced by other vendors and are still around.

I have personally spoken to many folks about those labels not being correct, and nobody wants to believe me. However, I still have the original artwork/paste-up if anyone ever wants to see it.

You will occasionally also see labels with a spead-winged eagle and "Kennebec Arsenal" on them. Those are also faux-labels, again from the 70's, but still, apparently, kicking around some quarters.

Respects,

[Starbuck73]

Catridge Packages

Hi, I'm new to authentic campaigning, and I was wondering how to make the packages catridges came in, and how many catridges were in in a package? I'm trying to avoid farby methods of hauling extra ammo to events.

Thanks a lot!

Happy Memorial Day!
Nathan Anderson

[AZReenactor]

Re: Catridge Packages

Nathan,
A little use of the search engine here or off site like Google should reveal that there is a fair amount of this information already available. To avoid starting yet another thread on this topic, I've merged your post with the last thread along the same lines.

You might also look through the research articles sedction, specifically at.

Making Authentic Cartridge Packs by John Wedeward, 33d Wisconsin
Making Authentic Cartridges by John Wedeward, 33d Wisconsin

The AC isn't here to spoon feed people the same old basic information over and over again. We don't mind helping now and then but we really expect folks to do basic research or at least e-search at this end of the hobby.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Cartridge packages

In the events folder, for Vicksburg 2007, I also posted a simple set of instructions for Federal participants' rifle-musket ammunition. The principal difference to caution against for the Vicksburg guidelines is that, because that event is on NPS land, use of "wadding" in the cartridges is not allowed, and typically most reenactors do use such wadding to approximate the size of an original rifle-musket cartridge. The document posted in the Vicksburg 2007 folder includes photographs.