Jacket construction question

[dpalyka]

I have noticed that some of the jackets I have seen (in original images) appear to have padding in the shoulders/upper breast... How common was this?
What was used/would you use as a modern equivalant?

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Jacket construction question

You are correct -- padding is often used in the construction of period garments, mostly frock coats and officer garments. Usually, this padding is quilted, with either simple straight stitch-lines through the lining, or rather elaborate designs. The latter is seen often on civilian garments, and sometimes with a colorful thread.

Wool batting is best because of its texture and durability, but that can be difficult to locate through the usual sources. Some people use cotton batting (which is not necessarily incorrect for some garments) which is available in different thicknesses.

I have noticed that some of the jackets I have seen (in original images) appear to have padding in the shoulders/upper breast... How common was this?
What was used/would you use as a modern equivalant?

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Jacket construction question

With the resurgence of "heirloom quilting" it's getting easier to get hold of wool batting, too... one of the nice things about the quilting rennaissance!

The padding and foundation layers in tailored garments are pretty complex; there are some modern books out on tailoring that can be helpful (the cut of the clothing has changed, but the basic tailoring layers have not), and there are several reprinted tailoring manuals out as well.

You can definitely tell the difference between, for instance, a tailored frock coat, and one that is largely unconstructed inside--they hang very differently.

[dpalyka]

Re: Jacket construction question

With the resurgence of "heirloom quilting" it's getting easier to get hold of wool batting, too... one of the nice things about the quilting rennaissance!

The padding and foundation layers in tailored garments are pretty complex; there are some modern books out on tailoring that can be helpful (the cut of the clothing has changed, but the basic tailoring layers have not), and there are several reprinted tailoring manuals out as well.

You can definitely tell the difference between, for instance, a tailored frock coat, and one that is largely unconstructed inside--they hang very differently.

Does this jacket appear to be padded to you?

http://www.thejealoustype.com/gallery/misc-books/Unidentified_Enlistedman_11th_Regt_IN_Vols

http://www.thejealoustype.com/gallery/misc-books/11in

http://www.thejealoustype.com/gallery/misc-books/randyphotos_2

http://www.thejealoustype.com/gallery/misc-books/randyphotos_4

http://www.thejealoustype.com/gallery/misc-books/randyphotos_8

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Jacket construction question

The relative "bulk" of the fold near the armpit would lead me to believe there may be more in the upper chest than just outer wool and a lining, but there doesn't appear to be full tailoring in the upper chest (not all the layers you might find in a tailor-made frock for instance). Some appear to be less "constructed" than others...

Nifty jacket--and I'm totally oblivious to distinctions in military clothing, so I'm just going by "folds" and "bulk", and "smoothed silhouette", as I would with any garment. Definitely follow any construction guidelines found in original documents for this style, or consistent with extant articles.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Jacket construction question

Without viewing an original garment or seeing detailed notes from a qualified person, I wouldn't be comfortable suggesting a garment had padding/quilting or not.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Jacket construction question

Hallo Kameraden!

I have only had the opportunity to view two "Zouave jackets," and such are not part of my interests or experience.

Neither were "padded."

To oversimply and overgeneralize, coats (such as the Dress Coat, and officers' coats, were usually "padded" at the chest to help create the desired fashion look of being "pigeon breasted" in profile.
The "Zouave jacket" often consists of an open jacket with a "false vest" front arrangement.

And, in general, while pictures and images are fantastic, they do fall way short when it comes to material, pattern, and construction details analysis. IMHO, for the most part, and when replicating garments, having the "original" garment(s) in hand is the best, if not only, way to go.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[dpalyka]

Re: Jacket construction question

Hallo Kameraden!

I have only had the opportunity to view two "Zouave jackets," and such are not part of my interests or experience.

Neither were "padded."

To oversimply and overgeneralize, coats (such as the Dress Coat, and officers' coats, were usually "padded" at the chest to help create the desired fashion look of being "pigeon breasted" in profile.
The "Zouave jacket" often consists of an open jacket with a "false vest" front arrangement.

And, in general, while pictures and images are fantastic, they do fall way short when it comes to material, pattern, and construction details analysis. IMHO, for the most part, and when replicating garments, having the "original" garment(s) in hand is the best, if not only, way to go.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

So what you are saying is, if there are no existing articles to reproduce you shouldnt bother trying? Thats a pretty narrow and limited view dont you think?
Without a time machine, in your eyes not much would get done.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Jacket construction question

So what you are saying is, if there are no existing articles to reproduce you shouldnt bother trying? Thats a pretty narrow and limited view dont you think?
Without a time machine, in your eyes not much would get done.

I think you missed the point. There are too many details that one needs to be able to accurately reproduce or recreate any garment. From a period photo, can you tell the type, weave, color and weight of the fabric used in its construction? How can one possible draft an accurate pattern? What type of interfacing is used and where is it? What type of batting material and how is it quilted? Is the garment machine or hand stitched? These are but a few of the things needed to replicate any garment and while some of them might be answered from a detailed anaylsis of period photos, the majority cannot.
Further, unless one either copies an artifact or uses the same pattern, materials and construction techniques used in the original, the resulting item is not a reproduction of anything, however educated the craftsman might be.

My 2 cents worth.

Dave Myrick

[dpalyka]

Re: Jacket construction question

I think you missed the point. There are too many details that one needs to be able to accurately reproduce or recreate any garment. From a period photo, can you tell the type, weave, color and weight of the fabric used in its construction? How can one possible draft an accurate pattern? What type of interfacing is used and where is it? What type of batting material and how is it quilted? Is the garment machine or hand stitched? These are but a few of the things needed to replicate any garment and while some of them might be answered from a detailed anaylsis of period photos, the majority cannot.
Further, unless one either copies an artifact or uses the same pattern, materials and construction techniques used in the original, the resulting item is not a reproduction of anything, however educated the craftsman might be.

My 2 cents worth.

Dave Myrick

I understand what you are saying, however the reprocussions of your statements are what concern me.
I have searched extensivly for existing garments and as far as I can tell there are none surviving for me to work from.
This impression however is one that I really want to do and I have done extensive research on it.
I am not going to abandon it completely just because I cannot be abosolutely certain that it is 100% correct.
By the same token, I recently purchaced a forage cap (and paid alot of money for it) that was an "exact reproduction" of an original.
The problem was that it was an exact reproduction of the cap *now* not as it was issued.
It was unwearable and looked like crap. The color was completely faded and it was clearly shrunken to a disproportionate shape.
Which is worse?
I opt for practicality.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Jacket construction question

"I understand what you are saying, however the reprocussions of your statements are what concern me.
I have searched extensivly for existing garments and as far as I can tell there are none surviving for me to work from."

The search for scarce artifacts can take years. Don't give up to easily to quickly.

"This impression however is one that I really want to do and I have done extensive research on it.
I am not going to abandon it completely just because I cannot be abosolutely certain that it is 100% correct."

This is a flawed theory. If it is not worth doing correctly, then why do it at all? What possibly could motivate you to do something halfway? It is a diservice to those in original unit you would claim to represent. Obscure impressions take years to properly research and document.

"By the same token, I recently purchaced a forage cap (and paid alot of money for it) that was an "exact reproduction" of an original.
The problem was that it was an exact reproduction of the cap *now* not as it was issued.
It was unwearable and looked like crap. The color was completely faded and it was clearly shrunken to a disproportionate shape."

As always the buyer has to beware. As always research is the key. Did you research the item and the vendor prior to the purchase or did you rely on someone else's research or on word of mouth? If you purchased a cap and are dissatisfied with it, return it.

"I opt for practicality."

Practicality is not what this is about, its about authentically and accurately reenacting actual history.

Dave Myrick

[dpalyka]

Re: Jacket construction question

Sorry if I'm coming off as a bit of a jerk here...
It is difficult to derive inflection in emails and I appologize if I have come across as brash or argumentative.

[Bill Cross]

Re: Jacket construction question

While I'm mindful of John Stillwagon's cautions about speculating on a jacket we haven't handled, looking at the photos, these jackets were not padded. I am currently working on a period vest, and the surviving examples mostly seem to have had wool batting. Even a single, thin layer of batting fluffs out the garment, while the ones in the photo hang limp and don't indicate same. They are certainly lined, but I don't think they're padded.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Jacket construction question

To look at this logically (not always a safe bet but roll with me here for a second), I'm not sure why anyone would pad the chest of a zouave jacket. Stranger things have certainly happened, but padding, and as a result, stiffening the breast of a garment that was designed only to be hooked at the throat seems counter-intuitive to me. Many, if not most, garments with padded chests were designed to achieve the "pigeon-chested" look and that is not a characteristic one would expect to see in a zouave jacket.

Taken in total, the circumstantial evidence certainly points to an unpadded jacket.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Jacket construction question

Damon

I really applaud your deep interest in this unit, as well as your quest for information regarding this unit.

Obviously you have hit a brick wall. So, I feel the best course of action in light of you having no surviving examples of the uniform originally used by this unit to go by would be to; Study as many period images of the unit (which it seems you are doing) and look at suriving uniforms of other zouave units to get a general feel of overall construction techniques used in that style of uniform. Armed with that knowledge make the best educated geuss on your uniforms construction. Obviously this is far from the best way to make an accurate reprodution, but there really isnt anything else you can do without an original to work with.

Good Luck.