Jacket construction question

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Jacket construction question

In this case, the circumstantial evidence certainly points to an unpadded jacket.

John,

I would agree. It comes down to understanding fashion and material culture beyond just types of cloth and number of stitches. Padding the front panels of jackets and frocks was done with a very specific purpose...to create a sillouette that enhanced the wearer's chest, while narrowing the torso toward the waist...very martial even to this day. As you said, a zouave jacket, by design is to be worn closed at the neck while falling naturally toward the bottom of the jacket. Now of course there were variations to the rule, but these strayed from traditional zouave dress while retaining some of the "flair."

I have to agree that the jacket, more than likely was unpadded.

Chris

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Jacket construction question

In a quest to support some of the conjectural comments made on this thread by myself and others, I did a little digging (imagine that...) and found the following:

From Michael J. McAfee, Zouaves: The First and the Bravest (Gettysburg, PA: Thomas Publications, 1991)

"This, the second uniform of the 11th Indiana, was of a pattern which would become very popular for troops in the Department of the Gulf. Several regiments in the department effected the Zouave-style jacket with integral false vest." (Emphasis mine.)

From the unpublished sketchbook of George C. Woodbridge, Mr. Woodbridge confirms McAfee's assertion this was the second uniform of the 11th Indiana and describes the jacket thusly, "Black jacket, dark blue vest, which according to a member, was attached to the jacket, brass buttons. Trim color- white or light blue(?) Possibly has trim on edge of cuffs." (Emphasis mine.)

So, according to two reliable sources, this jacket had an integral false vest which would effectively preclude a padded or quilted chest. Going further, it would also explain the "bulkiness" noted by several posters in this thread.

All that said, for more information on the uniforms of the 11th Indiana, Don Troiani was kind enough to publish a bibliography on the subject. Here are the works he recommends:

Lew Wallace, An Autobiography (New York: Harper, 1906).

Harry T. Grube, "Forming and Equipping the First Six Regiments of Indiana in 1861," Military Collector and Historian 5, no. 1 (March 1953): 1-7.

[Minieball577]

Re: Jacket construction question

"This, the second uniform of the 11th Indiana, was of a pattern which would become very popular for troops in the Department of the Gulf. Several regiments in the department effected the Zouave-style jacket with integral false vest." (Emphasis mine.)

From the unpublished sketchbook of George C. Woodbridge, Mr. Woodbridge confirms McAfee's assertion this was the second uniform of the 11th Indiana and describes the jacket thusly, "Black jacket, dark blue vest, which according to a member, was attached to the jacket, brass buttons. Trim color- white or light blue(?) Possibly has trim on edge of cuffs." (Emphasis mine.)

So, according to two reliable sources, this jacket had an integral false vest which would effectively preclude a padded or quilted chest. Going further, it would also explain the "bulkiness" noted by several posters in this thread.

You are referring to the wrong coat. The coat discussed in your citations is the coat worn in the following image,

http://www.thejealoustype.com/albums...seup.sized.jpg ,

not the coat being dicussed in the rest of this thread. The coat in the Daugherty photo is similar to that worn by other regiments, such as the 12th In and the 34th IN. The coat in question in this thread is the one shown on later photos of the 11th, and issued after the regiment veteranized.

[dpalyka]

Re: Jacket construction question

You are referring to the wrong coat. The coat discussed in your citations is the coat worn in the following image,

http://www.thejealoustype.com/albums...seup.sized.jpg ,

not the coat being dicussed in the rest of this thread. The coat in the Daugherty photo is similar to that worn by other regiments, such as the 12th In and the 34th IN. The coat in question in this thread is the one shown on later photos of the 11th, and issued after the regiment veteranized.

Research on the 11th has been extremely difficult for exactly these reasons, most of the prior research found it impossible to accept the 3 jackets. I have more primary documentation at this point on the 2nd jacket than the 3rd yet because the 1st and 3rd are more photographed (I have only found one image of the 2nd) it is assumed to be exclusive.
I also have documentation for 2 other (non-zouave) jackets being issued as replacements.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Jacket construction question

Chris,

Actually, I am talking about the coats illustrated in four of the pics Damon posted, the McAfee book and Woodbridge sketchbook none of which look anything like the image you posted.

If you will review the images Damon posted earlier in this thread, you will see that six of them feature jackets with an integral vest. If you look at the attached image below (taken from Damon's post), you will see four more examples of the jacket with integral vest illustrated in both of the references that I cited.

If I am confused, I apologize.

Referring to Damon's last post, I think he might be correct in his assertion that there are more variations of these garments than was previously accepted.

[dpalyka]

Re: Jacket construction question

Chris,

Actually, I am talking about the same coat.

If you will review the images Damon posted earlier in this thread, you will see that four of them feature jackets with an integral vest.

I'm sorry, but I think that is simply a vest. Look closely at the images, the jacket doesnt sit in a way that is consitant with having the vest atttached.
Why would some have it and others not?

This uniform jacket is based almost exactly on the original grey 3 month jacket.


I believe it was made for their "triumphant return" to Indianapolis....

I have made this jacket from the pattern for the 3month jacket and it looks right to me...

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: Jacket construction question

The "vest" in the above post doesn't look like it is a vest. To me it appears as if he is wearing his jacket over an overshirt or a similar garment with brass buttons. If you look just above his belt buckle you can see what looks to me as being the end of a placket. This would also explain why you can see small portions of his trousers just above the belt and over the vest/overshirt. Normally a vest would cover up the top of the trousers.

[dpalyka]

Re: Jacket construction question

The "vest" in the above post doesn't look like it is a vest. To me it appears as if he is wearing his jacket over an overshirt or a similar garment with brass buttons. If you look just above his belt buckle you can see what looks to me as being the end of a placket. This would also explain why you can see small portions of his trousers just above the belt and over the vest/overshirt. Normally a vest would cover up the top of the trousers.

Correct, that is the 3 mo uniform and he is not wearing a vest...
they were issued those blue flannel shirts.
I have yet to find any documentation on vests until the vetran uniform images and even then there are more without than with.

[Matt Caldwell]

Re: Jacket construction question

The "vest" in the above post doesn't look like it is a vest. To me it appears as if he is wearing his jacket over an overshirt or a similar garment with brass buttons. If you look just above his belt buckle you can see what looks to me as being the end of a placket. This would also explain why you can see small portions of his trousers just above the belt and over the vest/overshirt. Normally a vest would cover up the top of the trousers.

If you blow up the image, you can see the placket at the bottom. With the fold down collar, placket, and a POCKET (blow it up and look close) on his right breast, I agree that this is a shirt as well.

[dpalyka]

Clarification

3 month:
Grey Jean, no vest, blue flannel shirt


3yr:
Dark blue/Light blue "false vest", federal style sky blue trousers.


Vetran:
Dark blue zouave style jacket, federal issue trousers


Hope that is clearer now...

Other:
Indiana issue jacket (found on most of their troops) I believe this was issued as a replacement for the 3yr jacket)

I also have records from late in the war where federal issue sack coats were issued... they probably tired of making special jackets for the boys... :)

[coastaltrash]

Re: Jacket construction question

"So what you are saying is, if there are no existing articles to reproduce you shouldnt bother trying? Thats a pretty narrow and limited view dont you think?"

Welcome to the dark side.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Jacket construction question

"So what you are saying is, if there are no existing articles to reproduce you shouldnt bother trying? Thats a pretty narrow and limited view dont you think?"

Welcome to the dark side.

I feel with SOLID research and an above average knowledge of 19th century military chothing construction techniques, it is possible to reproduce a garment without a surviving original. Case in point the Mexican War uniforms that a well know and respected maker produced for himself.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Jacket construction question

Okay, time to moderate...

In his first post, Damon asked about padded chests. He received a reply and then posted, "Does this jacket appear to be padded to you?" along with several images of fellows in variations of a uniform he later referred to as a veterans uniform.

After some thoughtful conjecture in a number of posts, I pulled my resources and posted comments by two respected authors on the jacket images in the earliest question and suddenly, the discussion has changed to other uniforms and I'm posting about the wrong one.

That said, I'm not sure what the question is anymore.

If the questions is "Were those jackets quilted?" the answer is we can't tell without seeing an original or detailed notes on an original.

If the question is "What was the 11th Indiana wearing at this point in the war?" I think you have a solid framework but the fact that your uniform timeline fails to conform to the works of authors like McAfee and Woodbridge, I think it bears further scrutiny.

If the question is how do you make a reproduction of a certain uniform (that no longer exists)? The answer is you can't. By looking only at a photograph, the best you can do is make a costume.

Lastly, and this is directed at Damon, I think you have exhausted the resources of this forum in regards to the 11th Indiana.

[rebjeb04]

Re: Jacket construction question

Felt like reviving this post a little!?

I'm currently constructing a home procurred Confederate officers shell jacket. The idea came from an image in Mississippi Portraits of Conflict of Capt. Thomas P. Hodges, 41st Mississippi, and the Lt. Hamilton Branch's field jacket in Echoes of Glory.

My pattern is Charlie's "Mystery" jacket. Cloth is FHW sheeps gray on brown warp, white cotton shirting for the lining, and black 100% cotton velveteen for the collar and pointed cuffs.

Okay, I'll have the baby:tounge_sm!

What would be a good lining construction; padded and quilted in the chest or without?

References to a few extant models would be great to decide from. Has anyone viewed this technique used on many C.S. jackets? I know the Mississippi Artillery coat in Troiani's collection is quilted, but a few more references would be great.