Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

[Huckleberry]

New 61 Springfield purchased and defarbed by Lodgewood Mfg. First field use recently, and very intermittent ignition of powder (1 or so of every 4 attempts).

Pulled nipple, cleaned.. water comes pouring out of nipple hole when not inserted; when inserted - very little if lucky.

The nipple is whatever standard comes with the Armisport. I know there is a re-enactors nipple with a larger flash hole - ASSUMING that would do the trick.

Agree? Any other suggestions? Do I need to widen the flash hole even more on the re-enactors nipple (once purchased)? Never had this issue with Euroarms Enfield I had for about 15 years.

[Tyler Underwood]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

I cannot offer up much advice on this John, but I can say that I have the same issue with my 61. So much so that I HATE using it. I admittedly have never really looked into fixing the issue because I hardly use it. However, I do look forward to hearing some of the responses.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

Hallo!

If you already have a "reenactor" cone (nipple) and not a small vented N-SSA competition one... the problem is elsewhere.

IF you snap a cap off with the muzzle held near some blades or grass or a plant.. does the "blast" move the blades or leaves to indicate a clear path. If you clean with a modern cleaning jag and a patch, does it forcibly squirt a stream of water out of the cone or does it just dribble and run?

First, I will assume the flash channel is clean and clear and it is not a used gun that was not maintained properly and the flash channel is not coked up inside of the bolster leading to the barrel and powder charge. Or a small piece of flawed cap explosive wafer broke off and is lodged inside of the cone's vent unseen?

Second. Or the flash channel is filled with excess oil or perhaps even grease from a greasy patch before it was put away for "winter?

Third. Are you using quality musket caps?

Fourth. I assume the mainspring is "crisp" and not cracked so as to be weak and unable to slam the cap?

IMHO, most repro M1861 issues are due to the angular flash channel building up with fouling that gets baked into coke and constricts the flow of the flash in getting to the powder charge.

Curt

[jtrotta]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

John,

I've had similar issues in the past. A replacement ("reenactor") cone solved my problems.

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

A "reenactor" cone helped my troubles years ago but they never fully went away. Curt could correct me but I believe that the channel has a hard 90 degree turn on the reproductions which the originals did not. Making this turn for the cap seems to be a challenge on occasion. Another issue I had was not fully drying out the weapon after a field cleaning. Leading to wet powder and a useless weapon. Also, having to much oil after a cleaning produces the same result.

[Pennvolunteer]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

I own an Armi Sport 61 and a Miroku 61, both work like champs and I love them. I have never experienced this issue personally. One thing I am pretty adamant about is when I clean it, I always remove the nipple and the clean out screw and make sure both are clear. I have 2 guys in our group that had the same problem and at events I find myself as a file closer picking their muskets and other maintenance actions during skirmishes. One gent of course used the "re-enactor nipple" solution from a vendor and it seemed to solve his problem. The other drilled out the nipple himself, which I don't recommend, I think it's dangerous because you don't have the exact specs. Frankly, I don't think you'll find a better assessment than Curt's.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

Hallo!

Drilling out a repro cone is tricky. Original cones "are marvels of engineering design" as their vent channel is roughly hour-glass shaped.



One can either drill a repro all the way through, or drill out the bottom larger than the top.

Reproduction cones are hardened to various "random" degrees. Some are so hard one can burn out even a carbide tipped drill bit unless use din a slowed down drill press with oil to keep temps down. Some are so hard they do not take well to being drilled out and shatter- into one's face or eyes (wear shop goggles or glasses). Some run the risk of shattering if drilled out too much when the gun is fired- especially when live firing.

And yes, the Italians take some 90 degree production short-cuts in the flash channel and bolster. :(

Long distance "diagnosing" without the gun being in-hand can be hard, but hopefully Herr John the OP will report back and post what he found.

c

[KSfusilier]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

I own a 61' Armi Sport. I took the approach to drill out the nipple. As Curt said it can be a tricky endeavor, fortunately I was successful with two of the three I attempted. I always have these two drilled out nipples with me, one on the weapon and the other in my cleaning kit. Like Frank, when cleaning the rifle I remove the clean out screw and pay particular attention to make sure that area is clear. I also replace the dirty nipple with the clean one from my kit. The only time I've had issues was at the last Perryville and for some reason I had a non drilled out nipple on the weapon and neither of my two drilled out ones, first time in 19 years that I've owned the weapon I've had problems on the field.

[maillemaker]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

It's probably your caps. I'm betting you are using CCI caps.

I don't have a 61 Springfield, but I do have a JRA Richmond Carbine which is similar.

The RC like the 61 S has a right-angle fire channel. That is, the hole drilled and tapped for the cone intersects with another hole drilled at a 90 degree angle to it, that comes in through the side of the bolster and into the barrel bore. This is plugged from the outside with the "clean out screw".

When using CCI caps with my RC, I get very unreliable ignition. This is why I use Dynamite Nobel / RWS caps exclusively in competition.

CCI caps will work OK in my Enfield, and I suspect this is because the Enfield has a straight-through fire channel.

My understanding is that the CCI caps were deliberately dialed down after a lawsuit from a reenactor who got cap fragments in their eye. CCI caps were labeled "for reenactor use" but later they slapped another label on top of that label that said, "multi purpose use". I know because I had some of the double-labeled CCI cap tins.

So for reliable ignition, particularly with arms with non-straight fire channels, I would recommend a good quality cap like Dynamite Nobel / RWS.

Shuetzen is supposedly now making caps but I have not tried them.

Steve

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

Well, quite a bit has been written on this problem over the years and The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy (first published in 2006) has a chapter devoted to this particular topic alone. Ordinarily I would direct you there, but the book is no longer in print and while copies are still available "used" they sell for many times the cover price. Further, you have gotten some pretty solid direction in the posts above, and I'm not sure that adding more information to the likely "causes" of the issue gets you much closer to what you want, which is a viable long term solution. It has quite a bit to do with the bolster design along with weaker machine grade investment cast steel lock internals, which is not easily remedied. The Armi-Sport lock assembly is not going to take better quality hardened reproduction or original forged parts. The lock geometry bears little to no resemblance to the original design. Remember, the original US model 1861 was highly prized for its reliability by Civil War soldiers lucky enough to have one. There were good reasons for that besides latent provincialism.

The first thing to try is what has already been suggested...replace the factory cone with a better quality reproduction with a larger vent. Regqtm has a very good steel replacement cone for around $11 or so. The Armi-Sport takes the 8 x 1 mm size if memory serves. In many cases that is all you will need to do. Obviously try that easy, low cost fix first. Second, I would switch to slightly finer FFFg black powder which ignites more easily and roll your rounds with slightly more powder, like 65g vs the normal 60g. And always use the best quality powder you can afford, like Goex or Schuetzen. There is less fouling. If that does not do the trick, all of the next steps will most likely require a professional gunsmith used to working on Civil War reproductions like Todd Watts to take some power tools to it. The flash channel might be slightly undersized, off center or perhaps not drilled all the way through the barrel walls and so on. The quality control on those Italian reproductions is not great.

In addition, to achieve relatively trouble-free performance going forward, you will need to be fastidious about keeping the bolster, cone and flash channel very clean and free of fouling. Otherwise, you can expect the mis-fire problem to occur with aggravating regularity.

[csa63]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

John, I had the EXACT same problem. I have had Armisport Enfield for the last 15 years, never had a problem. I got a Lodgewood defarbed 61 Springfield, and first battle using it. had maybe 15 misfires out of the first 20 rounds. Got so frustrated, I just turned and ran...luckily that was supposed to happen in the scenario, I just did it a little early, haha. I was using CCI caps.

I did some research about other people having the same problem. Took the advice I found, and have had maybe 5 misfires the last 3 battles combined. First, go get the German, RWS, caps! MAJOR difference in the reliability. Apparently it burns hotter or some scientific crap, but it works better indeed. Second, whenever you clean your musket in the field, take out the side vent screw after your done cleaning the rest of the rifle. I don't use oil at the risk of a cook off, but I take a pipe cleaner (yes, they are not just used for children's arts & crafts, lol) and run it through the nipple (cone) until it looks pretty. Then insert the pipe cleaner from the vent screw hole all the way to the barrel. I usually push it in and out until the pipe cleaner is completely black, then turn it around, and use the other side until it stops getting progressively black. If it was a real hot battle, sometimes a 2nd or even 3rd pipe cleaner is used. Again, I don't use any oil, just water to clean my rifle. At home after, I give that area of my rifle special attention and do the same thing as I do in the field, but use a little bit of oil to make sure all fouling from the weekend is gone.

Lastly, make sure you do get a reenactor nipple/cone. And make sure you are using a solid 60 grains, maybe even a little more. I've noticed a few of my misfires, I didn't get all of the powder in the barrel. But when I added a little more from a 2nd round, it went off like a charm. I've started using about 65-ish grains and that seems to help too.

Hope this helps as much as it helped me. Good luck, pard! And if you find a better way that helps more, please share.

[Huckleberry]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

Pards, the many responses are much appreciated. Regarding the caps I use, only go with the German made brand, always have for many years. As shared I was using the standard Armisport nipple that came with the weapon; Lodgewood will be shipping me a few Reenactor's nipples which I'll try next. No intent to bore our the flash hole.. yet. After 15 or so years of reliable performance from my Euroarms Enfield (traded in for the new Springfield), I'd like to quickly get back to a reliable piece in the field. Will keep you all updated on progress. Thanks again to this community! Btw I also use GOEX 2ff powder, around 60 or so grams (when I get tired of rolling rounds who knows who much I actually put in there ha)

[Cumpston1862]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

John-

Coming to the party a little late but I purchased an Armisport 61 Springfield from Lodgewood Mfg. too and had the same problem. The problem as mentioned is the 90 degree turn. I kept my Springfield cleaner than clean and still had a high ratio of misfires. Eventually I had to just take hits because my musket would not fire at all. Switched to the German caps didn't fix the problem. Drilled out my nipple still had a high rate of misfires. It improved slightly but not much. What I finally had to do was drill out the hole in the barrel or the bolster. Everyone said you have to go to gunsmith and maybe some are more comfortable with that but here is what I did. I took out the side screw and than grabbed my drill bits to find the size hole was there. After determining the size by how far the bit would go in I used the "next" size larger and slowly drilled it out. The difference was MINUTE but the effect was instantaneous. I loaded and fired 20 rounds into it right after eachother without any problems. I than tried the lower grade caps and they work now too. At my next event I fired probably close to 60-80 rounds with ONE misfire. What I did was at a last resort try everything else first and if the problem persists you will need to do what I did. As a matter of fact now that the bolster is a better size I had to replace my drilled out nipple as that is too much...FYI. Good luck.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

Hallo!

A Curiosity question...

I assume you drilled straight in and just enlarged the flash channel into the barrel.

Do you use FF or FFF powder?

I think you may be now having powder from the breech "flow" into the touch-hole and closer to the bottom vent of the cone for surer chance of ignition...

Nothing succeeds like.. success! ;)

(I also shoot flintlock "longrifles." They are "rigged" (touch hole enlarged) to self prime the pans when using FFF but not when using FF.)

Curt

[Cumpston1862]

Re: Armisport Springfield - Firing Issue

Curt-

Yes I just drilled straight in. I took my time and was very methodical in checking the size before drilling and than drilling the one size up very slow and straight. I believe I started with 2F and than switched to 3F thinking the smaller grains would help but it didn't. Making that hole just one size up made a lot of difference. It has been about 3 years now so I can not recall the size it was and the size I drilled it to but it works.
Furthering the discussion. When I live fired the musket even before I drilled it out ignition was not a problem. I assume the pressure of having an actual mine ball in the barrel forced the powder to where it needed to go.