Drilling in German?

[J.H.Berger]

Re: Drilling in German?

The typical dialects in northern Germany were the so called Low German languages which are still slightly different from each other but the people could understand each other. Low German has strong connections with Netherlands and English but barely understandable for southern Germans. Keep in mind the Anglos and Saxons and Juetes came from the low saxon area before they invaded the British Isles. These languages are still spoken today but are not as common among the common people any more. I have met a man from New Knoxville Ohio years ago. A descendant from a Family Fledderjohann from Ladbergen ( here in the Muensterland) and still in contact with their relatives. His German Cousin( 5th generation as the Ladberger emmigrated in the 1850s) did not speak English and he did not speak High German but both " küert up Plattdütschk" spoke Low German and so could speak with each other very well!. Lüt Anna Susanna is a Plattdütsch song from the north Holstein or Friesland.

Sorry but I am learning Mönsterlänner Platt right now so I had to throw this in;)

[weed]

Re: Drilling in German?

I had Jan "translate" Caseys drill manual for me a number of years ago. I learned it, but we (the 33d Wisconsin) a "German" Regiment never used it, as non of the guys could understand any of the commands I was giving in German. My great grandfather, Arnold Rader came to America in 1852 from Hofen, Germany (I'm still in contact with my relatives there and the Wedewards in the Berlin area, we speak on the telephone in both English and German) He fought in the 46th Illinois from the Freeport area. (A German Regiment if there ever as one!!) And all my research on the 46th Illinois tells me that the commands were all given in English not German.

And Gutten Tag to Jan and Benedict. I still will make it to Germany to reenact with you guys!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Drilling in German?

Hallo!

On many levels, if one thinks about it...

If one is instructed, and learns the movement, motions, and steps of a manual of arms or a drill/maneuver- it can be irrevelent what the name of it is.
Meaning, if I am instructed, taught, learned, practiced, and commanded in the series of movements that are say.. "Shoulder- Arms!" It does not matter whether those are associated with "Das Gewehr, Ueber!" or "Alfred Luxury Yacht!"

That might, on a WAG, be why we do not see much or anything on Germanized manuals in America?

Curt
Gruppe -- In Doppelreihe -- Angetreten! Mess

[MissouriStateGuard]

Re: Drilling in German?

Frank,

Wilson's Creek National Battlefield has a manual printed in St. Louis in May 1861 as a translation of Hardee's Tactics into German, no doubt for the education of the German-Americans rallying around Franz Sigel. While the descriptions are literally written in German, the commands were retained as English; this I take to show that those commands were meant to be given in English.

Here's a link to their associated website:

http://www.civilwarvirtualmuseum.org...-soldier-book/

Let me know if you need a copy!

V/R,
kip

[Silas]

Re: Drilling in German?

That manual is awesome. Handwritten text with some great illustrations. What's not to like about it?

Question : In what dialect of German is that written? I popped onto google translator for the command, shoulder-arms. It came back in modern German as Schulter - Arme which is not what is written in that manual. This old thread which has evolved into something more than just a drill book.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Drilling in German?

Hallo!

I am cursed with a form of "Dyslexia" when it comes to pre WWI German "sharp script" writing. And even have problems at times with the older Fraktur type fonts in printed works. Just before WWI, Prussia switched over to Suetterlin but many folks use the word "Suetterlin" to descripe all of the cursive German that goes back to the 16th century.
Suetterlin was taught in Germany from 1935 until 1941. The Nazi's incorrectly viewed it as "Jewish."

Anyways, I can read but a few words of the older cursive used here. I can make out some letters in a Suetterlin version of my name, but without haivng learned the Suetterlin Alphabet, it gets freaky for:



A problem with computer translators is that they tend to be English driven in grammar and syntax, but are unable to handle more "idiomatic" language use. As a result, they often are comical jibberish.

Especially, the idioms and more "idiomatic" constructions. While we would want to say "Shoulder Arms," but to borrow from the 20th century German manuals, they say "The Weapon, Over!" (Das Gewehr, Ueber!). Or instead of "Order Arms," "Gewehr, Ab!' (Weapon, Down!)

Yes, IMHO, this has been one of the most "authentic" threads on CW "German."

Kurt

[Benedict]

Re: Drilling in German?

Question : In what dialect of German is that written?

I can only read the title page, as my knowledge of pre-WWII German handwriting is less than poor ... and that title page is in Hochdeutsch (standard German language). I guess it is pretty safe to guess that the handwriting is also in Hochdeutsch. While Germans tended to talk their dialects, "official" writing was usually in standard German. From my knowledge, the major differences in written 19th century German were how some words were actually written -- until Conrad Duden came along and brought us the dictionary bearing his name. Of course published texts are something different than personal letters or diaries, where you will find dialect, misspellings, etc.

By the way, you can find an Edison recording of Bismarck from the 1890s that was recently rediscovered -- the way the "Iron Chancellor" talks German on that record is not too different from modern-day standard German.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Drilling in German?

Hallo!

IMHO, that is because Bismarck was raised and educated as a Prussian Junker.. and High German has a "Preussen" sound to it (at least to my tin ears).

:)

Curt

[weed]

Re: Drilling in German?

One problem as mentioned above, is being able to read and write high and low German. This is probably the hardest thing I have ever did in geneology. To find my great grandfather's linneage, I had to go back to both the Church and Civil Records in Hofen, Germany. Then translate them to English. These are My great grandfather' birth records Arnold Rader) from Hofen, Germany in 1815 and also, included is the marrage of his parents (my great great grandparents) from Hofen, Germany first the Original Marriage Certificate (in German) and my translation to English. John Paul Rader and Catharina Kirch May 15, 1808.

[weed]

Re: Drilling in German?

it did help that my mom taught German and Latin for OVER 40 years before her death in 1986.

[J.H.Berger]

Re: Drilling in German?

That manual is awesome. Handwritten text with some great illustrations. What's not to like about it?

Question : In what dialect of German is that written? I popped onto google translator for the command, shoulder-arms. It came back in modern German as Schulter - Arme which is not what is written in that manual. This old thread which has evolved into something more than just a drill book.

Mark you have to keep in mind that actually the dialects like Schwaebisch, Bayrisch, Plattdeutsch etc. are/were spoken languages not written ones. So if a text was written ist was done in High German.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Drilling in German?

Hallo!

Exactly.

One way to look at it, is that a government wanted to be "understood" as far as possible, just a writers and publications needed to be understood in more than their town or state.
Plus with the industrialization and modernization, folks were coming into cities and factories and needed to be able to be understood. A typical pattern was something like this- my grandfather and grandmother spoke only Old Hessian Dialect at home. My mom and aunt spoke Old Dialect at home, but Modern Dialect around their town. Plus as young people, they learned High German for the Modern Era if out of their state or region

While not the same as dialect, American English has regionalisms: Eastern New England, Inland Northern, North Midland, South Midland, and Southern that extend in bands north to south, but also east to west. For example, North Midland extends from the East Coast to the West Coast like a giant triangle.




In a similar vein...we can look at American English or British English (England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, etc.) in the written word, but when we speak it, it may not sound the same.
For example, Americans add vowel sounds and sometimes add extra syllables or take them away, or change the entire sound. A quick example. "Tar" or "far' for tire and fire. Or pronounce Mary, merry, and marry the same or differently.

And last but not least, and one of my heresies... our using modern American regional accents for their Civil War era ancestors. ;) :)

Curt

[Silas]

Re: Drilling in German?

Jan, German wasn't one of the languages I took in school so I was a bit confused by the high verses low concept. Maybe my use of the word, dialect, wasn't the right word. I do understand the written verses spoken aspect. I've been to some places during my travels in the hobby where I have wondered how other's spoken English was so different than my own.

I really encountered that problem in England where I had great difficulty understanding English speakers in London because it is such a polyglot city, but I had an easier time understanding people well outside London. Same written language as my own, but there were times riding in the subway that I wondered what language others were speaking only to realize after a paragraph or so of spoken language that it was English.

[eric marten]

Re: Drilling in German?

Mark Twain's immortal words:

"German is the only language where you have to wait until the end of the sentence to find out if you're being insulted"

[J.H.Berger]

Re: Drilling in German?

Mark Twain's immortal words:

"German is the only language where you have to wait until the end of the sentence to find out if you're being insulted"

Laughing out loud!! Great Quote I will have to keep this one in mind!!!!