Drilling in German?

[9thOVICoA]

Yes so I'm a little confused here, while doing research on the ninth and other ethnic regiments with troops whom did not have more than a rudimentary understanding of English or might have had no understanding at all for that matter how was the instruction of a soldier done? Did certain regiments simply convert those commands into English or was there a whole different drill manual reflecting their armies back home in Europe?

Ben, rule #1 on the forums is to sign your full, given name. Please adjust your signature file. - Mike Chapman

[2RIVB]

Re: Drilling in German?

From the little I have read on this subject, I believe there were printings of the different manuals in german. If I am remembering correctly, I saw it mentioned in Regiments & Uniforms. I will check and post my findings later.

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: Drilling in German?

Yes so I'm a little confused here, while doing research on the ninth and other ethnic regiments with troops whom did not have more than a rudimentary understanding of English or might have had no understanding at all for that matter how was the instruction of a soldier done? Did certain regiments simply convert those commands into English or was there a whole different drill manual reflecting their armies back home in Europe?

Consult these references:

http://ohiocivilwar.com/cw9.html

[2RIVB]

Re: Drilling in German?

That reference in Regiments & Uniforms is page 57, 45th New York Infantry, first paragraph, line 5.

"Orders were given in the native tongue, and until forbidden by the army, the regimental books were written in german."

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Drilling in German?

Hallo Kameraden!

Genau! ;-)

So wie so...

http://www.first-virginia.de/Taktik/gilham.htm

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[markj]

Re: Drilling in German?

Hi,

Gosh, "German drill" has been a recurring subject of debate in recent years. What I can tell you is this: I've been researching alleged use of "German" or "Prussian" drill in the 9th Ohio and 32nd Indiana for the past four years yet, despite unearthing some totally new source material, I still don't know what precisely was used in those regiments beyond a reasonable doubt. Frankly, the evidence points in all directions. At this point, I would be very suspicious of anybody who claims to have a positive answer to this question.

I have obtained a copy of the most likely "German" drill manual that was used in the 1860's, namely, the 1847 "Exerzier-Reglement" of the Royal Prussian Army, and am currently having this translated for the first time into English. Based on what I've seen there is no way it could have been used "off the shelf" and side-by-side with Hardee/Casey. The company and battalion sizes/formations are very different (Prussian battalions at full wartime T/O strength consisted of 4 companies of 200 men each); likewise for the positioning of the NCOs/officers and file-closers. These differences even extend to the standard pace ("schritt") used--the Prussian "quick step" ranged anywhere from 108-120 paces/minute. The rifle drill also varies significantly from Hardee since the Prussian Army formally adopted the Dreyse "Zundnadel Gewehr" ("Needle Gun"), roughly akin to a modern bolt-action rifle, in the late 1840's.

I am personally convinced that "German drill," at least after 1861, mostly applied to the instructional process for new enlistees. I think this is borne out by surviving German translations of "Hardee": The instructional sections are, indeed, "auf Deutsch" but the commands are, without exception, "auf Englisch." This makes perfect sense: teach the troops in their native tongue to preclude confusion during the learning process but keep the actual commands in English to preclude confusion in the field. Something many folks overlook is that German units were generally brigaded alongside English-speaking regiments. Having a "Dutch" unit going off and doing it's own thing when it came to commands, especially at reviews/parades or in battle, simply wasn't acceptable to any commander with a lick of sense.

A good example of this is August Willich, who assumed brigade command in August 1862, after serving in the 9th Ohio and 32nd Indiana. He was, in fact, a native Prussian but only the 32nd Indiana in his brigade was truly "German." All the rest were predominately "American" (i.e., 15th Ohio, 49th Ohio, 89th Illinois, etc.) with the brief exception, in 1863-64, of the mostly-Norwegian 15th Wisconsin. And my understanding is that 15th WI actually drilled in English. I've seen enough evidence to believe that Willich incorporated "Prussianisms" in his drill but the commands themselves remained in English. Of further interest is that I found an order, dated December 1861, by the brigade commander who preceded Willich directing that only "U.S. Infantry & Rifle Tactics" was to be used for regimental drill and "Scott's" to be used for brigade maneuvers!

However, there is some evidence indicating that Willich taught his troops Prussian-style skirmish drill and solid proof that his brigade used "German bugle calls." These were likely adapted from those carried in the "Exerzier-Reglement" or those used by the Hanoverian Army....or both. I should also note that many "German" regiments became less so with time due to losses, non-German recruits, etc. The 32nd Indiana, which mustered in September 1861, had lost about half of its original complement of officers alone due to combat losses, resignations, and medical discharges by September 1862. The 32nd Indiana reorganized as a four-company "Residual Battalion" in the fall of 1864 with at least 25% of its strength being non-German (there were a surprising number of Irish in its ranks!). Dutch-speaking "Oirish?" Not bloody likely, mate!

Accordingly, here is my suggestion: Unless you can find definitive proof for "German commands," save the "sprach" for camp scenarios and continue to use English for company drill on up. However, to add a more authentic flavor you might want to call out the English commands in a German accent! Ja voll!

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Agate]

Re: Drilling in German?

Have to agree.

One thing to keep in mind concerning the Ninth is that they were organizing as part of an army, under McClellan. They were offered uniforms in the same manner as the other regiments at Camp Dennison, and they were armed in the same manner as the other regiments organizing at Dennison. Flank companies were given rifle-muskets, while the center companies received smoothbores. They were a regiment made up of Germans in an American army.

If there were differences, they may have more likely been reflections of the prior service of the officers of the regiment, and their being veterans of the various conflicts in Europe.

For example, the Ninth decided to forego the uniform coats purchased by Ohio in early April for the initial regiments organizing under Lincoln's first call which of course, they were one.

As they were the first Ohio regiment reorganized for three years, they were immediately offered them. I'll have to find the quote out of one of the Cincinnati papers that I have, but the point was that they decided to draw only their fatigue uniforms (blouses) in order to save on their uniform allowance. As no other regiment seems to have done this at Dennison (with some of the soldiers of other regiments actually drawing overcoats that the Ohio Military Board had advertised and purchased, despite this being the beginning of Summer) it's in little doubt due to the nature of the prior service of their officers and their experience.

Other regiments were reported as freezing and doing duty "in their drawers" by Oct. of 1861 over in the mountains of Western Virginia as they over-drew clothing early on as inexperienced volunteers were apt to do.

Couple of places to look for further info on the regiment if you haven't happened as yet. The Cincinnati Historical Society holds ten boxes of material, mostly regimental and company records in MSS 505, or 500 (been a while since I've looked at that stuff, something like that).

Also, the city papers of the period, particularly the Cincinnati Republikaner and the Cincinnati Volksblatt if you happen to read German. The English language papers too sometimes mention the Ninth. Also, should be something upcoming in MC&H concerning the early vols. at Camp Dennison and the uniforms that were drawn, might want to be on the lookout for that as well. Good luck to you.

Regards,

John

John Sarver
Cin. O.

[Pennvolunteer]

Re: Drilling in German?

All,
I found this old thread using the search function. We are planning a potential living history event this fall in Newtonia, Mo, and the hosts have accounts by some of the Confederates saying they heard the 9th Wisconson giving commands in German. Working on this to verify that, but still am unable to find a source that gives me what those commands would be. The links on here didn't give me what I needed or don't work anymore. I found German drill for pikes on the internet, but I'm working with a German friend on what may have been 19th Century German versions of Casey's commands.
Any help or pointing me to a solution would be greatly appreciated.

[markj]

Re: Drilling in German?

Hi Frank,

Please send me your e-mail address and I'll send you something you'll find very interesting. I presume you've already read my article that appeared in the Columbia Rifles Research Compendium a few years back?

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Alexander Vasquez]

Re: Drilling in German?

Back in 1995 I participated in two ACW events in Germany. One event was a closed to public tactical, the other was a public event that roughly translated as "1,000 years of German Military History"; I marched as a German-Missourian alongside WWI impressions, full-on knights in armor, and 100 Years' War guys armed with huge matchlocks. This was done by torchlight through a town used by the Bundeswehr for training purposes and is one of my highlights in the hobby.

What may be interesting, and pertinent to this thread, is that -ALL- commands in both cases were done in English. Heavily accented to be sure, but English. As I recall, we used Gilham's and Casey's manuals--Gilham's for the tactical, and Casey's for the public demonstration. I do not know why that was. The only deviation I remember was my Sharps carbine being called a "kindergewehr" by the officers because it was so small compared to the muskets, and that phrase (translating to "kid's rifle) was meant as a joke. The commander (David Schiller, as I recall) translated to the public in German what we were doing as he gave the commands in English.

In any case, I asked why they used the American manuals and not German ones. I was told that as far as they knew any German units would have been expected to perform drill as the American units would have and that was that. Camp talk was done in German (since I spoke "Austrian" they tended to use English as a courtesy when I was about since they did not seem to like hearing badly accented Austrian) but all commands were in English.

Generous fellows, all of them. I'll never forget the man who looked at me, proclaimed me "too thin to be useful", and proceeded to force-feed me about 5 pounds each of the best sausage, steak, and pork chops I have ever eaten.


Alexander Vasquez
Late of Company C, 15 IA

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Drilling in German?

Hallo!

And just an aside... what "German?"

Today, we usually always think of "German" and "Germany." Meaning, High German and Germany.

The Civil War reality was that Germany was a collection of states, kingdoms, grand duchies, duchies, principalties, and free-cities... often speaking localized and regionalized old dialects of German.
While modern American English has regional affectations/accents we have not real dialects.

The net effect of dialect was that even though it was "German" it was actually say "Hessian" or 'Swabian," "Bavarian" or 'Franken" or "Saxon" or "Prussian," etc. And, a lad from one cit or town may not understand what a lad from the next town over was saying. (This would create problems on a national scale come WWI, and forced trhe Germans to create armies from local regions so that the men had a chance of understanding one another.

For hundreds of years, the only effort for a common German came from writers, who wanted to have a broad base. And to a small extent the myth of High German being invented by Martin Luther to promote the spread of Protestanism. (Luther's translation of the Bible were in bureaucratic Old Saxon.)

Here is an example of dialect:

In English: "Laughter is healthy."
In High German: "Lachen ist Gesund."
In Swabian: "Lacha ischt Xonst."

My grandfather spoke Old-Hessian. My mother, both Old Hessian and Modern Hessian dialekt. When I first met my grandfather, after several mornings of him saying what sounded like "Moya!" I asked for a translation. It was Old Hessian for "Morgen" (Good) Morning!"

I have pondered the "German" spoken in American CW German units and companies, as it would have been a nightmare because those lads were not "Germans," they were actually former Hessians, Schwabians, Bavarians, Saxons, Prussians, etc.

But, as in WWI and WWII reenacting and living history, speaking any German is better than speaking unaccented even American English. ;) :)

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Re: Drilling in German?

To reinforce your point, a (period) song, which mostly sounds like jibberish except for the native swabians: http://youtu.be/PWardYJbyoU

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Drilling in German?

Hallo!

For those who can do "German," here is an example, in the "modern" diaelct of the Hamburg, Germany area:

Lads who speak (some) German, give it a try... prior to WWII there were over 72 RECOGNIZED German dialects:

"Luett Anna Susanna"

Luett Anna Susanna
Stah op un mak Fuer!
Och ne, mi leew Moder
Dat Holt is so duerr.
Rudiral Lalala, Rudiral lalala.
Och ne, mi leew Moder,
Dat is so duerr.

Denn schuer mi de Ketels
Und feg mi dat Hus,
Huet abent kamt hier noch
Dress Junggesell'n in' Hus,
Rudiral Lalala, Rudiral lalala.
Huet abent kamt hier noch
Dress Junggesell'n in' Hus.

Un will se nich kamen
So wuellt mi se hal'n
Mit Peer un mit Wagen
Mit Suelver beflag'n.
Rudiral Lalala, Rudiral lalala.
Mit Peer un mit Wagen
Mit Suelver beflag'n.

Un kuennt se nich danzen,
So wuellt wi er't lehrn:
Wir wuellt er die Tueffein
In Bodder umkehren.
Rudiral Lalala, Rudiral lalala.
Wir wuellt er die Tueffein
In Bodder umkehren

Kurt
Who at first glance thought it... Dutch

[Benedict]

Re: Drilling in German?

The net effect of dialect was that even though it was "German" it was actually say "Hessian" or 'Swabian," "Bavarian" or 'Franken" or "Saxon" or "Prussian," etc. And, a lad from one cit or town may not understand what a lad from the next town over was saying. (This would create problems on a national scale come WWI, and forced trhe Germans to create armies from local regions so that the men had a chance of understanding one another.[/IMG]

Just as a quick aside ... The armies of WWI Germany were "regional" because of the highly (con-)federalized nature of the German Empire. Regiments were recruited from certain regions (Kingdom of Bavaria, of Saxony, of Württemberg, Grandduchy of Baden, etc. pp.) and, during peacetime, part of, for example, one of the Prussian army corps or the Bavarian army corps or Saxon army corps et al. In times of war, the Emperor became commander-in-chief of all regional army corps. Only the navy and the Schutztruppe (troops for service in the colonies) were truly "German," i.e. recruited from all over Germany. I guess the Flying Corps would also be an exception.

All very complicated (please refer to the unification of Germany in 1871 and the various intra-German treaties) ... And regionalism (and even localism) is still big in today's Germany, where some people will rather identify as "Bavarian" first and "German" only second ...

[john.vansickle]

Re: Drilling in German?

In interesting aside to doing German is the politics involved. Just as the Irish had their own take on the politics of the ACW, so did many of the Germans. Many of the German soldiers were exiles (or offspring, thereof) of the failed German revolution of 1848 and this probably had an impact of their own self-image as well as their perception of the American Civil War. This is one of my planned areas of research when I get back home to Ohio.

John Van Sickle
Currently taking refuge from a sand storm