The 15th and 27th Oil Cloth Questions (Consolidated)

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Following a period recipee for making oilclothes I made corn starch sizing per the directions. Allowing this to dry on the cloth I then applied the blackened linseed oil mixture. On the underside of the cloth (reverse of the painted side) the mixture blead through in patches, some areas being black others yellow to white. Ideas on where I may have gone wrong with the sizing? Is there anything else PERIOD to use which works better?

Thanks,

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

Gents,

For your oilcloth sizing pleasure, both current threads related to this subject have been consolidated like Arkansas infantry regiments into one convenient thread.

Starch away boys! :wink_smil

John Stillwagon
Forum Moderator

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Period Sizing on oilclothes?

Paul,

I don't belive you have done anything wrong. Actually it sounds just right.

I have seen three original cloths , each with an NC pedigree and all three have the bleeding you describe.

I think that the sizing actually makes a tightly woven or naturally repellent textile more absorbent. In this case it has to accept a thick waterproofing.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Period Sizing on oilclothes?

Garrison,

Believe me that brings some relief. To have the one side so perfect and find the other one "patchy" was a bit of a shock at first. Open to any other comments..

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Period Sizing on oilclothes?

This finish isn't like modern applications which are a seperate film melted or stuck to the surface. These older applications are absorbed by the textile and bleed naturally. The sizing probably makes it bleed more.

[lazarus]

Yet another oil cloth question

Well, I am trying out the oil cloth painting stuff and have had some success in the past using the recipe suggested on this website by several others. However, I find that it always leaks through the canvas I use, which has a very tight weave. I always apply the cornstarch sizing beforehand and follow the recipe almost exactly. I know that has to be someone who can give me a tip on reducing the bleed through. I am at my wit's end!

Cameron Lippard
Lazarus Battery
Lumsden's Battery
Palmetto Light Artillery

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: Yet another oil cloth question

This topic was just covered two days ago in this thread:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ight=oil+cloth

[Charles Heath]

Re: Yet another oil cloth question

These two threads may help.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3583&highlight=painted+cloth

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=511&highlight=painted+cloth

Charles Heath

[lazarus]

Re: Yet another oil cloth question

Thanks for the help fellas. I viewed the same posts before I posted, but really didn't see a solution. Anyway, a little leakage is fine, as suggested.

Thanks again,
Cameron Lippard

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Yet another oil cloth question

BTW

That is Painted Cloth, not Oil Cloth.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Yet another oil cloth question

Thanks for the help fellas. I viewed the same posts before I posted, but really didn't see a solution. Anyway, a little leakage is fine, as suggested.

Thanks again,
Cameron Lippard

Again...

Every original I have seen has bleed through. They actually have a great deal of bleeding.

Starch opens the textile so it can accept the treatment and hopefully be water resistant when dry. These are not waterproof items.

The idea is to saturate the textile with the starch then apply the treatment
Boil the solution and remove from heat.
The cloth should be emersed in this very hot water/starch solution. Let it dry completely then add treatment to your top side, in a relatively heavy single coat only.

Since corn and potato starch is water soluble any residue will rinse out or rub off in time leaving only the treatment.

[lazarus]

Re: Yet another oil cloth question

Garrison, thanks for the information. Are you suggesting that I coat both sides of the cloth with the cornstarch mixture? I have only done it on the side to be treated. If this is true, maybe this will change the amount of bleeding. Thanks,
Cameron Lippard

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Yet another oil cloth question

If you are starting over with a new cloth then yes, soak the entire cloth.

It is going to bleed.

If you want to replicate an original it will bleed... it should bleed... and could bleed a lot.

The result will be black to yellowish-grey mottled patches of bleed on the reverse. The bleeding can be heavy in some patches and light in others, as per the originals.

You are not looking for a cosmetic application but a functional one.

If black on one side and white on the other is what you are looking for then tarred sheeting is not what you want.

Hang in there, you will get it right ( ...and I'll bet what you have done to date is already correct).

[JohnTaylorCW]

From the Old Forum (just to get it on the new one)

The following is just so I can transfer information from the Old Forum threads to the new Forum. It's provided soley for interest, not as a comment on the current discussion.

John Taylor

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Posted by VACPL on July 9th, 2002 01:48 PM:
oilcloth

Can anyone give me directions on how to make an oilcloth? I tried the link in the articles section but it doesn't work. I need size, type of cloth, and how to make the actual linseed oil covering.

Zach Langley


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Posted by 9thTexasPvt on July 9th, 2002 02:34 PM:
Oilcloth

A search of this website pulled up the former discussion on making oilcloths with this link:

http://www.geocities.com/union_guard/index.html

Their site has the following (plus modern instructions if you want them). They didn't have sizes or cloth to use (I use heavy wieght duck cloth cut to be about a 6' x 3').


"This recipe is an approximation, since the original recipe specified "litharge," or lead monoxide (PbO) which is extremely poisonous.

Materials:
Boiled linseed oil
Mineral spirits paint thinner
Lampblack (comes in tubes or dry powder)
Japan dryer
Corn starch

Method:
Make a sizing by boiling about a quart of water and adding cornstarch mixed in cold water until the mixture becomes a little syrupy.
Paint the cloth with the cornstarch sizing and let dry.
Mix one part of boiled linseed oil with one part of mineral spirits. Add lamp black until the paint is a very opaque black. Add one oz. (2 tbsp) of Japan dryer per pint.
With a brush, paint the cloth with the blackened linseed oil and let dry. This can take several days.
Mix one part of boiled linseed oil with two parts of mineral spirits. Add one oz. of Japan dryer per pint.
With a brush, paint the cloth with the clear linseed oil mixture and let it dry. This can also take several days. Two coats of this mixture should give the results you want.

(You can omit the cornstarch sizing if you want, but the oil-based paint will pretty much soak the cloth.)"

__________________
Pvt. Clay Denison
Co. I 9th Texas Inf / 165th New York



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Posted by Agate on July 9th, 2002 03:57 PM:
how bout this

Consider looking in the "Scientific American" which can be found online at the MOA (Making of America) site at Cornell University. This period publication should provide all sorts of receipts for this kind of thing as well as info on how it was done commercially during the mid 19th century.

I would do a proximity search for oilcloth and manufacture. Also, consider other combinations for questions you may or may not have, which might or might not include army and cloth as well as tinned and sheet and logwood and dyed et. All sorts of neat things and you will be doing your own research.

Good luck,

John Sarver
Indeependint
Cin. O.


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Posted by jmordin on July 9th, 2002 04:50 PM:
How period correct do you want to be?

The problem with using a period recipe is, you just can't get correct materials, and if you did, I'm not sure you'd want to use them. Even modern oil pants can be difficult to work with.

I under took this project a few weeks ago. I started with the formulas above, but modified it a bit for efficiency sake. For fabric, I used a couple yards of ticking, it's heavy enough to hold the paint without too much bleed-though. I used a mix of about 1/2 boiled linseed oil and 1/2 black latex paint. I painted it on (at first with a roller, second coat with a brush) and let it dry. I got a chance to try it at Goofysburg this weekend where it got pretty dewy. It worked like a champ, lots of moisture on the painted side, none on my blanket side.

Josh

__________________
Josh Mordin




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Posted by Bill Cross on July 9th, 2002 06:58 PM:
a better recipe

comes via Mike Ventura. Use 2 parts paint to 1 part linseed oil, and add a splash of Japan dryer. The first coat will dry quickly, but the others take progressively longer, especially depending on the humidity. You can finish the outside with a mix of linseed oil and mineral spirits 4-1 with some more Japan dryer. This final coat gives it the "wet" look you see in period photos.

And, yes, there have been many arguments here about using period recipes, including those involving lead. I am comfortable using a modern recipe because the results are virtually identical to the originals without the risk and danger. Your mileage may vary.

__________________
Bill Cross
wcross@BSLG.com
Proudly a Rowdy Pard



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Posted by Henry Rifle on July 10th, 2002 12:44 AM:

The recipe above from the Olathe Union Guard website is one that I posted. It works very well, and is about as true to period recipes as you can be without using some pretty nasty chemicals. It is a variation of a recipe I found in an 1850 book on "handy hints" for just about anything.

For a base cloth, you can use cotton drill or cotton duck. Ticking will work, but I haven't researched its authenticity.

At the risk of beating on a long-dead horse, why not use the more authentic method? True, it's hard (if not impossible) to tell the difference. But, even if no one else can tell, you will know.

I've used both the "period" recipe, the oil/latex mix. The oil/latex method isn't significantly easier, it takes just as many coats, takes just about as long to dry, and is just as hard to clean up as the "period" recipe. (I know the website says different, but live and learn. It will be changed)

If we're encouraging authenticy on the Authenticity Forum, at least give it a shot with the "period" recipe.

I mean no disrespect to anyone who wants to use the latex recipe - this is just my recommendation. It's similar to the issue of Woolrich cloth. Do you want to use it just because you can't see the 10% nylon? If you want to do it that way, I'm not going to nit pick. However, if you ask my opinion on how I would recommend doing it, this is what you get.

P.S. I really don't want to start up that whole latex/no latex debate we had on the issue last time. It's somewhere in the archives for anyone who wants to search it out.

__________________
Jack Cox

"I think we need to table all the 2003 angst and ante up for Pickett's Mill and Reams Station for 2004. If there ever was any sort of desire for cooperation in authentic hobby, those two events are place to prove it." - P. Calloway





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Posted by VACPL on July 10th, 2002 12:44 AM:
still some questions

I found a recipe earlier this after noon after i posted my orginal question. I now have two more:
1. What is Japan dryer and where can I get it?
2. The recipe I have calls for using the latex paint mixed with linseed oil. It also calls for using Wallpaper sizing, I am assuming I can use the cornstarch sizing mentioned in your replys instead. Am I right or wrong?

Zach Langley


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Posted by 9thTexasPvt on July 10th, 2002 01:03 AM:
Japan Dryer

I just typed "Japan Dryer" into http://www.google.com/ and it pulled up quite a few places, it seems to run $4 to $5 for 16oz. And, yes the wallpaper sizing does the same thing as the cornstarch so pick whichever you feel comfortable with.

__________________
Pvt. Clay Denison
Co. I 9th Texas Inf / 165th New York



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Posted by Bill Cross on July 10th, 2002 01:54 AM:
You don't need the sizing....

at least I found it superfluous. The cloth should have a little bleed-through, and if you don't overdo the first coat, it's fine.

Japan dryer helps to encourage drying. You can pick it up in the paint department of any Home Depot or other paint source.

Also, with the paint, if you go the Latex route, be sure to have them fill the black paint up to the top with extra pigment. The clerk will look at you strange and insist it's black enough, but the extra pigment seems to give it a significantly more "period" look.

And no disrespect taken on the issue of period v. modern recipes. I have three pair of Chris Sullivan Woolrich pants and a greatcoat by Chris. I'm comfortable with the choice, but respect those who prefer 100% wool. To accommodate those folks, Chris will soon be offering 100% wool as an alternative.

__________________
Bill Cross
wcross@BSLG.com
Proudly a Rowdy Pard



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Posted by Agate on July 10th, 2002 03:39 AM:


Comrade Jack,

Well done post and thank you. I started to throw the computer though the window, your post spared me that embarrassment with my neighbors.

The point of my post was twofold.

As this question has been asked here so many times, it has become a joke with some, plain and simple. It was my hope to spare Zach from the posts of others who might be more likely to point this out to a new person (some offering little constructive help, BTW) and who might do so in a somewhat less then pleasant manner. We ask him to do a little homework and encourage him to research on his own and hopefully all is fine. Most folks encourage that and the thread seems a little more palatable for lack of a better term.

Understand too, I didn't mean in any way, shape, or form to "knock" your recipe if some interpreted this BTW. And, no need to bring up old issues, I agree. Not my intent on either count.

The point is that folks are asking questions (oilcloth, as well as others) that they can at least partially answer themselves with just a little effort. And looking up should be encouraged outside of the links provided the articles on this site.

It may be of no real practical value (as in the case of our modern, less volatile versions of oilcloth mixtures) in terms of their impressions to search the "Scientific American," however, they might come away with a much better grasp of what went into the actual manufacture of some of these goods. This, in turn, might allow for a more informed and educated decision or opinion in the selection of reproduction goods (or maybe, a hint at which "how to" article was written by a guy with a clue, because simply put, some don't seem to have one) for their impressions. It's called learning. Not the case I'm sure with our friend Zach, but, some folks are just becoming lazy. What was it, "how do I cut a circle?" c'mon.

If we do not encourage research, we fail to a degree as authentics, as that is what in practicality separates us from "that other hobby" as some of you are apt to put it. "You either are or your not" only works if you know what was.

BTW, Comrade Bill, Mr. Ventura might very well give credit to Tom Rock as he has done so on this board before.

Sarver


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Posted by Bill Cross on July 10th, 2002 04:17 AM:
Credit where credit is due

Sarver,

No disrespect to Mr. Rock. Many of these matters are passed down by virtual word of mouth. I got the recipe from Mike and as he's a friend, I wanted to acknowledge it.

__________________
Bill Cross
wcross@BSLG.com
Proudly a Rowdy Pard



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Posted by Agate on July 10th, 2002 04:26 AM:


Comrade Bill,

Fair enough.

Sarver


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Posted by Marlin Teat on July 10th, 2002 11:51 AM:
oilcloth

The hardest thing for me to find in the "authentic recipe" was the lamp black. A simple solution was to use copy machine toner. Toner is basically just carbon as is lamp-black and almost anyone with a copier will be glad to give away the excess that collects in the overflow container.

__________________
“Pog Mo Thoin”
Marlin Teat
Bedlam Boys Mess
37th Tennessee
Hardee Guards Btln.



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Posted by Henry Rifle on July 10th, 2002 03:11 PM:

Lamp black isn't hard to find. Most art supply stores and all good paint stores carry it in tubes or powder.

I believe that Xerox toner has a plasticizer in it. It may work, but do you want a ground cloth with a Xerox "maker's mark?"

__________________
Jack Cox

"I think we need to table all the 2003 angst and ante up for Pickett's Mill and Reams Station for 2004. If there ever was any sort of desire for cooperation in authentic hobby, those two events are place to prove it." - P. Calloway





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Posted by John Tobey on July 10th, 2002 03:48 PM:

Howdy all,

A few years ago, I decided to experiment with period waterproofing recipes. Bearing in mind that the original contractors were working under the same manufacturing parameters that exist today, I knew that the process had to be relatively simple, cheap, yet produce the desired effect.

I eventually found a recipe that seemed to fulfill these requirements. It involved three steps: starching, painting, and varnishing.

The starching part was the same as already discussed.

The paint formula was derived after reading Osman's "Potter's Patented Haversack and Knapsack Paint, 1864" article in the Summer 1994 edition of the Journal of the Company of Military Collectors and Historians. In it, he quoted the 1865 Quartermaster's Manual as specifying the waterproofing to consist of "...pure linseed oil, lamp-black, and spirits of turpentine," with a top coat of varnish. I went back to the period painting manuals and found a simple recipe for "oil paint." The actual proportions I used turned out as 1 cup of boiled linseed oil, four tubes of black artist's pigment (in lieu of lamp-black) and about an eighth-cup of turpentine.

Period paint manuals also pointed out that this paint wouldn't dry unless the temperature was at least 70 degrees, and the drier the air, the better. The original painting lofts had ducts heated by wood fires to improve production, but that's another story. I did the painting in my garage-shop and used a fan to circulate the air. I cheated on one paint job by robbing the de-humidfier from my cellar and using that in my shop -- that helped the drying process even more, but didn't do anything to encourage that "period" feeling I wanted to get from my experiment. I found that 2 or 3 coats of paint was adequate. The secret here was to put it on as thin as possible. I got the best results from those throw-away foam paint brushes.

The final coat of black oil varnish is what *really* gives the piece its distinctive look and feel. I used the following recipe: 4 ounces of pine rosin, a tube of black artist's color, and a pint of oil all melted together, then thinned with a 1/2 cup of turpentine. One coat of this, and the job was finished. Again, the secret was to put it on as thin as possible.

A similar varnish recipe is frequently seen in period manuals, but instead of pine rosin, it usually called for copal resin. Copal was relatively expensive, and in my opinion an unlikely ingredient for wartime production. One book I used (Johnson's "The Gentleman's Home Book" 1889) made the following comment that encouraged me to use pine rosin: "...this varnish [using copal] is much superior to the common practice of using rosin."

At normal temperatures, the finish has a rubbery feel to it. In extreme heat, it turns greasy, and in the cold it turns rock hard. It will not crack like some of the other recipes using modern paints and, of course, has a distinctive smell.

Sorry if this post is a tad windy, but it's a favorite topic of mine!

John Tobey


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Posted by Charles Heath on July 11th, 2002 02:59 PM:


John,

You state: "I used the following recipe: 4 ounces of pine rosin, a tube of black artist's color, and a pint of oil all melted together, then thinned with a 1/2 cup of turpentine. One coat of this, and the job was finished."

Did you employ a double-boiler for this, or were you just very careful using low heat and some good old fashioned patience?

Your Pard,
Charles Heath


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Posted by John Tobey on July 11th, 2002 06:29 PM:

Chas-man,

Now you're a representative for OSHA?

Seriously, you make an important point, and I'm embarrassed to have omitted it in my previous post.

The mixture is extremely flammable -- through my experiments, I learned several precautions the hard way...

First, I used a small electric hotplate for the heat source, and did my heating and mixing on the concrete floor, right in the center of an empty garage. I also had a fire extinguisher handy.

Second, most of the tubes of artists colors that I have used have a glycol-based lubricant added to the tube, presumably to faciliate movement of the pigment and prevent it from sticking to the tube. If you don't separate the glycol from the pigment before adding it to hot oil, it will cause a violent frothing of the oil and may cause some of it to boil over the pot and onto your heating element. This was "JT surprise No. 1"

Third, one must, as you pointed out, be extremely cautious about the amount of heat you apply to the mixture. I didn't use a double boiler, but perhaps I should. I overheated one of the mixtures and, well, lets just say that I was glad I had the fire extinguisher handy. This was "JT surprise No. 2," and from it I learned to remove the mixture from the heat *as soon* as the rosin had melted. I used a mortar and pestle to powder the rosin, so it melted pretty fast -- as far heat goes, I had the hotplate turned all the way up.

To answer your question, I used "old-fashioned patience", but a double boiler sounds like an even better idea.

Thanks for keeping safety part of the recipe!!

John Tobey


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Posted by VACPL on July 11th, 2002 10:05 PM:
bleed through

I started appling my linseed oil today. Will a little of it bleeding through the cloth be bad. It will dry right?

Zach Langley


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Posted by Henry Rifle on July 11th, 2002 10:37 PM:

A little bleed-through is expected. It won't hurt anything, nor will it affect the drying time. Most period painted accouterments I have seen have some bleed-through.

I ususally hang mine out in the sun to dry.

By the way, which recipe did you use? Just curious.

__________________
Jack Cox

"I think we need to table all the 2003 angst and ante up for Pickett's Mill and Reams Station for 2004. If there ever was any sort of desire for cooperation in authentic hobby, those two events are place to prove it." - P. Calloway





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Posted by VACPL on July 12th, 2002 04:07 PM:
went with...

Jack,
I decided to ditch my original plan and use the lampblack.

Zach Langley

[tmdreb]

Re: The 15th and 27th Oil Cloth Questions (Consolidated)

The issue I've always had is not just a little or a lot of bleed-thru, but that no matter which sides i put the sizing on, or how thick, both sides looked basically the same. Thankfully, I have learned to make some beautiful and supple oilcloth in my attempts. I'll have to try the soaking method.