Position of Flags

[westernfed]

I have volunteered to man the color guard for my company and I need to check your opinions on the position of the flags when both the federal color and state regimental color are being carried. When standing in battle line should the U.S. flag be carried by the man on the right or left of the color guard?

This should be simple, but I have seen opinions that go both ways!

Thanks for your help.

[JohnTaylorCW]

Re: Position of Flags

I believe Scott's had the subordinate flag on the right.

There's a good article on the Color Guard here:

http://www.47thva.org/pages/articles/colorguard.html

There's also on older thread you may find useful:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1050&highlight=colors

John T

[mdbucktail]

Re: Position of Flags

I have seen the colors carried both ways as well. But, according to Scott's, the subordinate color is always on the right. Also, when in battleline, remember... while marching the colors are 6 paces ahead of the line. As soon as the enemy is encountered the colors are moved back into the normal position in line.
Shoot me an e-mail, I have "School of the Colorguard" by Elmer woodward on my documents and can forward this to you.

[7thNYcav]

Re: Position of Flags

I work at the Provost Marshall office at FT Eustis and I received this email this morning on flag protocols.

The United States Flag, when carried in a procession with another flag, or flags, should be either on the marching right; that is, the flag's own right, or, if there is a line of other flags, in front of the center of that line.

[J.Smiley]

Re: Position of Flags

Greetings,
Could you please send me a copy of the Color Guard manual. I always thought that the colors were to be placed on the Right because or country was founded as a Republic. Hence Republic is right and democrat is Left? Please advise.
Pvt. John Washington Smiley 21st Mich Co.H

[Will Eichler]

Re: Position of Flags

Gentlemen,

I draw your attention to the "Authenticity Discussion" forum for a topic of the same nature under discussion. In it, Kevin O'Beirne of the ColumbiaRifles offers to send a PDF which is a mini-manual for colorguard. It is for an upcoming update of the Compendium. Kevin was kind enough to send it to me some time ago when a similar discussion came up. It's an excellent article and I recommend it. Thanks for sharing, Kevin.

Three thoughts:

1. Get the article.

2. Use the search function. I know we've had similar discussions in the recent past and they may help too.

3. I personally don't know of any rules about the positioning of the US flag (CS exempted here) before the Flag Code. If memory doesn't fail, that was the 1930's and not applicable.

Good luck in your quest for info. I think the article will help you greatly.

Cheers,

Will

[john duffer]

Re: Position of Flags

Scott's ABSTRACT OF INFANTRY TACTICS - Posts of Colors and Color-guard

51. The state and regimental colors shall be borne by two sergeants, the former on the right.

[markj]

Re: Position of Flags

Try looking at these extracted images showing the 3rd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery on parade at Fort Monroe VA in November 1864. There's nothing like photographic evidence to help you out.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[westernfed]

Re: Position of Flags

Try looking at these extracted images showing the 3rd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery on parade at Fort Monroe VA in November 1864. There's nothing like photographic evidence to help you out.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

Thanks for the photo Mark. That is a great example of the federal flag being placed on the right. I have tried looking for period photos of flags on parade and they are very rare!

One of the reasons I am confused about this issue is that I found in Dom Dal Bello’s PIE of the Infantry Battalion, on page 53 paragraph 146 he writes:

"If two colors are carried, Winfield Scott must be consulted: 'The state [national] and regimental colors shall be borne by two sergeants, the former on the right.' 31"

In the footnote he says: "31- Scott, W., Abstract of Infantry Tactics, 1829, Para. 51, It is here implied that the civil flag is to the right of the unit flag."

I am wondering if the confusion is the use of the term "state". Del Bello feels that "state" means the government's official flag, as in the "Head of State". Where as the "regimental" flag is what we normally associate with the individual State flags.

Another interesting question is why do the other manuals not make this point clear?!

[Jasper]

Re: Position of Flags

Federal colur guard short and sweet.

Scott's is the only mention of placment of colurs but if you can find period photographs you will see the both the regimental colurs and the national colors fliped from side to side.

1. anytime the colurs are not secured will be under guard.
2. the colur guard will post on the perade line 15 min's before to the colurs is played (your que is the assembly of the musicans)
3. DO NOT MOVE after you have posted everyone including officers will form on you.
4.during the forming of the perade the commanding officer of the colur company has no home in the traditional since. If he were to take his regular post it will throw off the dress and alignment of the battalion. His new home is at the breast of the last man in the CG until the march is commanded then he may return to his normal post.
5. At the end of the day the colurs will be secured with the commanding officer at head quarters.

Movement of the colur guard.

1.when independent of the colur company the CG will march 3 wide and 3 deep they will stay fronted and march to the commands of forward march and left and right wheel and backwards march. DO NOT use by files.

2. when in battalion formation the CG will follow the commands of the commanding officer. (staying in the three man front and wheeling in lew to every command is moderen CG and a henderance to the fighting army simply put you need to move as fast as everyone else.

3.The CG will be counted off to match the count of the colur company and 2's will step up causing the rank to be exstended to but not in the line of file closers. It is important the the man out keep his bearing and pay close attention to where he is if he were to start pushing inward he will throw everyone behind off.

4. When in the line of battle at the command forward the first 3 men of the CG will advance 6 paces. the remaining 6 will fill the hole created by steping up

5. At the command halt the 3 men of the advance will return to there position in the lines

6. when any fireing command is given the CG will take one step back and pin the colurs so that they will not hinder any man's aim.

7. The CG will not react to any fire command they will fire only to protect the colurs.


I had a blast doing this last year at Green Bush wisconson it has to be one of the highlights of my career. Here are a couple of things for you impresion where you think that you would normaly camp don't your place is right out side of HQ if you want to do it right (that's a minor one)here is the important one you are 9 men who more times then not don't know each other you were all selected form the diffrent companies. The offical guidlines is that you were given this honor because you are a sharp soldier with proper bearing and being clean and neat in apperance (yes in the west to) but also it was a way to get rid of trouble makers. You decide which one you are.

Jasper

p.s. you can find some pic's on the corn fed commrades web site if you intersted.

Thanks for the photo Mark. That is a great example of the federal flag being placed on the right. I have tried looking for period photos of flags on parade and they are very rare!

One of the reasons I am confused about this issue is that I found in Dom Dal Bello’s PIE of the Infantry Battalion, on page 53 paragraph 146 he writes:

"If two colors are carried, Winfield Scott must be consulted: 'The state [national] and regimental colors shall be borne by two sergeants, the former on the right.' 31"

In the footnote he says: "31- Scott, W., Abstract of Infantry Tactics, 1829, Para. 51, It is here implied that the civil flag is to the right of the unit flag."

I am wondering if the confusion is the use of the term "state". Del Bello feels that "state" means the government's official flag, as in the "Head of State". Where as the "regimental" flag is what we normally associate with the individual State flags.

Another interesting question is why do the other manuals not make this point clear?!

[marine05]

Re: Position of Flags

This is all great information and I read every post with great interest. I personally don't know if the present placement of the national colors has much bearing on the past as we have placed colors in various spots in the color guard. I would also opine that "state" can refer both to the national "state" as in the head of state or secretary of state, but also the state as part of the entire union. Regardless in most heraldic presentations the senior flag is on the right or higher than all the subordinate flags. Pictures are not always the best evidence as many times I have seen the negatives reveresed. The pictures presented on this thread do not appear to be backwards and the national colors are on the right.

As an aside, the U.S. Navy has had a policy, dating back to the Continental Navy of the National Ensign not being dipped, as in the colors being let down slightly from the forepeak, in a sign of friendship or respect. However, during President Clinton's terms in office when the U.S. Navy entered a Vietnamese port for the first time since the end of the war, he ordered that the colors of that vessel be dipped. Also for modern times the proper order of the service flags, based on seniority, is Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force, not as is heard spoken Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. So the takeaway from all this is, especially for this weekend of Memorial Day, if you are part of, or see massed colors you may want to ensure that they are in the proper order of seniority, the Coast Guard is usually last after the Air Force as they are not normally part of the DoD.

S/F

DJM

[westernfed]

Re: Position of Flags

Dan,

Thank you for reminding us of the main reason we honor the flag; the men and women who have given their lives to protect it and their country. Regardless of where the flag ends up in line, let it remind us all to remember those brave people.

In honor of Memorial Day.

Respectfully,