Back to Mississippi Rifle defarbing.

[Frenchie Larry]

Dear Living-History comrades,

I received here some excellent advices about Mississippi Rifle defarbing . Thanks God, I saved all the thread on my computer, just before the disappearance of the old forum ( if someone interested, I can sum up and copy/paste here the principal elements ) .

One of the big problems we talked about was the bayonet attachment.... In order to turn the euroarms replica into a defarbed rifle, close to one of the reworked .58 versions, with bayonet attachment, new sights....especially this model with spike "fayetteville " bayonet ...


Changing front sights, or attaching a bayonet lug, silver soldering or brazing it at the end of the barrel, appears as a big risk to make the end of the barrel turning into some kind of " banana" shape.

I have ( maybe.. ) an idea or a litte piece of idea ( " my two cents " , as people are used to say here )

.. the " remington zouave rifle " barrel made by euroarms seems to be very, very close to the eurorams Mississippi Rifle's ( like a lot of other parts ; some are actaully, I think, the same, for cost reasons )

euroarms CW rifles page

the zouave's barrel is with a bayonet lug ; even if it needs to be transformed ( and it will certainly ) , maybe it can be reshaped to one of the lugs used on reworked Mississippi rifles.. and fix the problem of the solder joint... once re-browned, with modern marking erased, correct sights and adapted to fit with the M41... a solution to have a " big knife " on this rifle ? M 1855 bayonet I think, as if I well remember M 1842 lug is under the barrel.....

Then, the way the barrel was turned down on original Miss. Rifles can make this more complicated...

If it works, then the problem will be.. to defarb the poor M1855 bayonet replicas !!! ( this will appear as holidays after working on the rifle ! )

.. Living History sometimes needs a lot of time.. and hope...


Now, I need to have a more information about these $%§!! reworked M41 ...Lots of answers may be in the Reilly's "UNITED STATES MILITARY SMALL-ARMS" , but a few hours after ordering it from Larry Rilling, he emailed me the book was out of stock, and the editor ( Rutger Gun Books ) didn't answered... I someone knows where I can order it....

During the war of 1870-71, France bought 391,110 rifles in USA, most of it were CW surplus... but not any model 1841, so informations about this rifle are very hard to find here.

Of course, all texts, pictures, drawings, about original reworked M41 could be of great use for me...

Best regards from France,

Christophe Larribere

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Back to Mississippi Rifle defarbing.

Hallo Kamerad!

I believe that the LOG CABIN SPORT SHOP in Lodi, Ohio (USA) carries U.S. MILITARY SMALL ARMS.

330.948.1082 PHONE
330.948.4307 FAX

And, I believe Ohio is -4 or -5 hours behind France in time zone.
Their hours are something like 10:00 A.M. - 6:00 P.M.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[yipper]

Re: Back to Mississippi Rifle defarbing.

Mr. Larribere,

Another source of info of M1841 rifles (and other weapons) is the "cyber museum" hosted by the Springfield Armory National Historic Site at: http://www.rediscov.com/spring.htm
These files provide photos and data on a large number of individual weapons.

As the Reilly volume you seek only contains 5 pages devoted to the M1841, I can send you a copy of my photocopy of those pages. Contact me by email, listed in my profile.

Also, an article by Wiley Sword (1993, Confederate Mississippi Rifles at First Bull Run, "Men At Arms", Nov/Dec: pp 17-23) contains a lot of useful info such as tabulated data compiled from the OR's indicating only 1385 of the 15060 M1841s held by "southern" US arsenals in 1861 were .58 cal.
You may wish to reconsider adapting yours for a bayonet.

Regards,

geoffrey lehmann

[Minieball577]

Re: Back to Mississippi Rifle defarbing.

Following the Mexican War the U.S found a need for bayonets to be fixed to their military rifles, and so began adapting many of them for bayonets. Models of this type include the "snell" bayonet conversion with the 'Benton' screw rear sight, and the bayonet conversions which used a sword bayonet and the experiemental pre-1855 wall sight. These arms can be observed in both .58 and in the original .54. So, the caliber of the arm, i.e. .54, does not necessarily mean that it was not fitted with a bayonet, and therefore some of the arms listed in the Sword article could very well have been fitted with Bayonets, even if still .54 calibre.

Some .54 models with bayonets include the afformentioned Benton Types, the Pre-1855 Long range sight variants, and South Carolina contracts which were fitted with triangular socket bayonets. Whitney Contracts, also fitted with long range sights based on the Enfield p 1853 sight were .54 calibre, seven groove rifling, and fitted with sword Bayonets. Some Mississippi Rifles fitted with Colt revolving Rifle sights also were in .54 calibre, and were adapted to take a sword bayonet. New Yorks State, "Remington Alterations" were in .54, turned at the muzzle and fitted with 1842 socket bayonets. A.J. Drake contracts were .54 and .58 and adapted for a triangular bayonet.

It is important to remember that the minie system was not adopted by the U.S. until midway through 1855, so many of the bayonet conversions effected prior to that point remained in standard U.S. Rifle calibre, .54. Also some of the rifles of the transitional period were also built in .54 while others were contracted or adapted to the new calibration.

So, in short, fit it with a boynet if you wish to fit it with a bayonet. The applicable question would be, what model, or contract, of Mississippi rifle did the original Louisiana men carry?

[yipper]

Still more on M1841 alterations

Gents,

According to Robert Reilly (1970, United States Military Small Arms, 1816-1865, pp. 33-37, the Eagle Press, Inc.), the Secretary of War on 5 July 1855 ordered, along with the adoption of the M1855 rifle and the .58 cal combustible Minie cartridge for all US long arms, that the M1841 be increased to .58 caliber, adapted to fit a brass-hilted saber bayonet and be equipped with long-range rear sights. M1841’s rebored to .58 cal typically received an all-steel ramrod with a slightly different shape of head from the original brass-tipped model.

Saber bayonets were of three types: the Snell Patent type which required only two slots milled into the barrel for mounting; the second variety required a lug added to the barrel, a shortened stock, and a shorter upper barrel band; and the third which required only the attachment of a split clamping ring to the barrel. In 1859 socket bayonets began to be mounted by means of a mounted bayonet stud and, in the case of the M1842 bayonet, by turning down the barrel forward of the upper band. Between 1855 and 1860, 8,879 M1841 rifles received these combinations of modifications in the national armories.

Information on contract modifications is available in the data sheets on individual weapons listed in the Springfield Armory collection I referenced in my above post. (http://www.rediscov.com/spring.htm). The State of New York received 5,000 M1841 rifles from the Ordnance Dept. in 1861 and contracted with Remington on 30 May 1861 to adapt these to saber bayonets (using a short stud without shortening the stock and front barrel band) while retaining the .54 cal bores. Remington delivered a total of 3,268 altered rifles. (Oddly enough, Remington had been the original manufacturer of these weapons, fulfilling the failed contract of John Griffiths.) New York then purchased 1,600 M1842 bayonets from Springfield Armory and contracted with F. Grosz to modify the remaining rifles to mount these bayonets by turning down the barrels and adding a mounting stud. The alterations made to 1,839 .54 cal “Windsor” rifles (manufactured by Robbins & Lawrence of Windsor, VT) by A.J. Drake, consisting of replacing the front sight blade with a block base sight suitable for mounting a socket bayonet, were performed under contract in 1862 for the State of Massachusetts.

Neither the Remington, Grosz or Drake alterations of rifles to receive bayonets while retaining a .54 cal bore would have been in the Federal armories in the southern states in January of 1861. Naturally, the alterations documented above are not presented as all-inclusive. As an admirer of the M1841, I’d love to see whatever references y’all can come up with.

As for M1841’s in Louisiana, Wiley Sword’s article (1993, Confederate Mississippi Rifles at First Bull Run, “Men at Arms” Nov/Dec: pp. 17-23) lists 1,385 .58 cal and 2,103 .54 cal in the Baton Rouge arsenal in January of 1861, though some rifles were also apparently transferred to the various States for militia quotas.

One of the things that originally begun this thread (on the old forum)was Mr. Larribere’s interest in Louisiana soldiers, inspired in part by the photo of Paul Thibodaux, 18th La, Co. G (Lafourche Creoles) shown here: http://members.tripod.com/j_richard/pthibuniform.html

Cpl. Thibodaux holds an apparently unaltered M1841.

Regards,

[1stMaine]

Re: Back to Mississippi Rifle defarbing.

Comrade,
I can attest that the 7th Maine Infantry was initially armed with M1841's manufactured by Robbins & Lawrence of Windsor, VT, as they are consistantly referred to as "Windsor Rifles". Additionally, photographs of some of the men show them to be fitted with sword bayonets, which may be seen here: http://www.avcnet.org/ne-do-ba/pic_cw07.html
It's interesting that the men are carrying standard pattern catridge boxes with slings, yet are using the M1855 Rifleman's belt, which has the attached scabbard for the sword bayonet. I infer from this that the "Windsor Rifles" were of .58 calibre, since they (the boxes) were issued by the Federal Government, along with the "Windsor Rifles" and are rigged for sling carriage.
Of course, that is only conjecture and inference on my part, but it seems reasonable based upon the evidence presented so far.
On an interesting note related to this, Colonel Conner, of the 7th Maine, remarks that during the Chancellorsville Campaign, the 7th was issued with an experimental cartridge which was waterproof and completely combustible. it was of a slightly smaller diameter than the normal round, and was able to be simply slid down the bore without the use of the rammer. He comments that with this round, the 7th's rate of fire was nearly equal to that of a breech-loader.
Trusting that this is of some small interest, I remain, respectfully,

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Back to Mississippi Rifle defarbing.

Hallo Herr Tim!

I wonder if the combustible cartridges may not have been the Bartholow Patent Cartridges...

Although they were patented in 1861, and purchased in the summer of 1862,
they may only have been deemed "experimental" by the 7th's colonel as compared to the "regular" .58 cartridge a year later in 1863?

The Bartholow "water-proof" cartridge seems to have been intended for use with the .58 box, the pack of cartridges reading:

"The blocks and tins accompanying the Cartridges are made to fit in the tins of the Cartridge-box. The blocks raise the Cartridge to the proper height, and the tins separate them and avoid all friction and wear."

But also gives the warning:

RAM THE BALL WELL HOME

Which is interesting in light of Colonel Connor's statement about their not ramming them, as the .577 or .578 Bartholow ball in a .580 bore would run the risk of not being seated all the way and bursting the barrel after a few round started to foul the barrel.
Perhaps the 7th's rounds were actually an "experimental" type not known to us...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Frenchie Larry]

Re: Back to Mississippi Rifle defarbing.

Dear " future " comrades ( as I don't even have anything to reenact CW now, unless my haircut and beard, and and enfield's " sergeant's tool " ;) ... but I want to be sure of what I will carry )

Yipper wrote in this thread ; " As for M1841?s in Louisiana, Wiley Sword?s article (1993, Confederate Mississippi Rifles at First Bull Run, ?Men at Arms? Nov/Dec: pp. 17-23) lists 1,385 .58 cal and 2,103 .54 cal in the Baton Rouge arsenal in January of 1861, though some rifles were also apparently transferred to the various States for militia quotas. "

This is a very interesting info, showing that .54 ansd .58 models are possible.... and it seems that modified models were inthe two calibers.

The main question I have to answer now is what type of M1841's were in service in the 18th LA . I think that with the nice informations I had on this forum and via email I will be able to make our 1841s close to the good model . A standard .54 model with no bayonet or long range sights would be easier to portray but with less fun carrying it....

The Thibodaux's photo shows a M41 without bayonet, but on left side, so If a bayonet lug exists on this rifle, it is hidden ; rear sight is hidden too, so all expectations are still possible. The gun was maybe lent by the photograph as they used to... possible, even if it's not probable.

I hope that in Silas T. Grisamore memories we will have any evidences of the model used ; then, this will be time to order it ( We'll wait until we''ll be sure of the caliber, .54 or .58 ). The manufacturer's identity can be a good evidence, like the " windsor rifles " , as most of it were M41 rebored in .58 if I understood weel ( just an example )

I will check the Lousiana University publications when i will be less busy, some about CW seems to be interesting too..

Of course, if someone haves any other info on the guns used in the 18th LA, this could be the last step from " paper " researches to " defarbing time " ( and then be sure I will, too, use your informations, and Curt-Heinrich's cooking recipes for browning barrels ;) )

Please receive best regards from France,

Christophe " Larry " Larribere

[Minieball577]

Re: Back to Mississippi Rifle defarbing.

Any chance of posting Mr. Curt-Heinrich's cooking recipes for browning barrels? I have an 1855 Rifle Type 1 that I would like to brown, but am interested in other methods than the chemical version bought in a store.

I know period methods include the use of "Dragon's Blood" but I am having a hard time finding a modern source for this dye.

[Frenchie Larry]

Re: Back to Mississippi Rifle defarbing.

I used " cooking recipes " as a joke, as , If I understood well, Curt-heinrich's method is based on modern chemical products, used in a particular way... but let's read his answer, maybe he has some secrets he tried to hide ;)