Berdan Sharps Misfire

[ejn]

My son has a Davide Pedersoli produced Berdan Sharps. It misfires about half the time, as does the Sharps of his fellow reenactors. Has anyone experienced this problem and cured it. I'd be interested in how you did it.

Ed

[Texian]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

Someone else will have to give you the technical reasons as to why the Sharps Rifle and Carbine reacts the way it does when fired with blanks, but I can tell you some of my experiences and how I handled them. First of all I used mine for both live firing as well as living history and was always amazed how I never had any problems when live firing. I could go through an entire cartridge box at Ft. Sill with no misfires, but at about the 12th or 13th blank, the thing was vitually useless. I was informed by someone more learned about the science of firearms that this difference in performance can be attributed to excess gas in the breach and a lack of vacum needed to remove gas from the complex breech when firing blanks in the Sharps. Apparently for some reason with a live round in the Sharps as the round exits the barrel it sucks the gas out along with it; however, with a blank there is nothing to pull the gas out and therefore it and other debris reamin in the breech. Should you then immediately load another round with the excess gas remaining the primer is prevented from igniting the round due to the presence of the gas. Now, let me state clearly that I don't know how much of this is accurate or a load of crap. The other problem I often encountered with others is that they had no idea what the breech looks like clean and unused in the first place, therefore, when going to clean the breech they would typically due an inadequate job. What was recommended to me and provided me a very serviceable weapon was the following:
1. Keep a clean weapon, very clean breech. I spent most of my cleaning time on the breech. Pipe cleaners with the bristles work great. Once per year I would use drill bits the same size as the fittings in the breach to give a more extensive cleaning. I used these in a hand-drill not an electric. Do not poor oil in the breech. Just place a small amount on the pipe cleaner to avoid rust between uses.
2. When firing blanks before opening the breech after every other round I would blow into the cone forcing the excess gas to exit. Reduced my missfires considerably.
3. Also when firing blanks I began making rounds that resemble the ones without tails seen in publications. To do this I took fulminated paper to make cylinders, used cigarette paper for the ignited end, and twisted the other end so the powder was as compressed as possible. In doing this I had a more realistic looking round, didn't have to wory about the tail not getting cut or just smashed, the residue from unburnt powder etc. was reduced due to the compession, and less powder was needed as well.
Again, this is what worked for me. It may be part ritual, superstition, and very little science, I don't know. But for as long as I used a Sharps this is the process I followed.
Hope this helps,
---Ed

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

My son has a Davide Pedersoli produced Berdan Sharps. It misfires about half the time, as does the Sharps of his fellow reenactors. Has anyone experienced this problem and cured it. I'd be interested in how you did it.

Ed

I'm sure a number of folks can help you, but you need to give them more information.

I have an Armi-Sport 1859 Sharps Infantry Rifle, which I purchased because one of my units (Brady's Sharpshooters -- Co. 'BSS', 16th Michigan) received them in 1864, and so it's the right weapon for our late war appearances. On the whole I find that it makes a powerful argument for a more PEC impression. I've faced a series of "challenges" with it, and have got them mostly licked (I think), but have less fortunate comrades with more problematic pieces. The Sharps is a finicky critter and there's a wide range in the quality of pieces among makers, and even among those by the same maker. I've observed other units in the field armed with Sharps rifles (and carbines), and it seems misfires are common to all of them.

Here are some questions and possible answers:

Does the cap go off when you pull the trigger?

If not, it could be hammer alignment or the spring, or a temporary misalignment caused by working the lock loose over the course of an engagement. The last has happened to me, and is pretty easy to address yourself (mainly by just inspecting the piece before you go out and play with it). The other issues may require professional attention.

Does the cap go off, but the charge doesn't?

One sees this a lot. You might have a dirty weapon (it doesn't take much). You might not have seated the cartridge properly -- it helps to roll it tight, keep the barrel up, and slap the butt (don't get carried away) as you might with a musket. Some fellows have originals or pieces so well made or modified that they'll set off a cartridge (one rolled with a thin, cigarette paper base) without having to cut off the end. Mine can do this maybe half the time (all the time if I'm willing to bust two or three caps), so I don't try it anymore.

I count myself as fortunate. By cleaning it thoroughly, making tight cartridges, and paying attention to how I'm operating it, I'm getting good work from my Sharps. I put 80 rounds through it at Spottsy with only a couple of misfires. Hopefully your son will have the same luck.

Just some thoughts. I'm looking forward to Mr. Schmidt providing the definitive response. ;)

[CavLt]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

Ed,

About half of my unit carries sharps carbines. And, out of the box experience the same problems you are having - a few shots and they plug up.

The solution was to drill out the cone and breech block slightly. It virtually eliminated misfires, even with heavy use.

I am sure this could create a problem if a weapon was to be live fired, but the weapons we use are strictly for reenactments only.

If this is something you would want to try I will get the exact drill size for you - I'm at work and can't recall of the top of my head what was used.

Jay Johnson

[Bosco]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

Nice Forum here!

[ejn]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

Jay, if you can get the drill size I'd appreciate it.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. We'll give them a try. I should have stated that the cap going off isn't the problem.

Ed

Ed,

About half of my unit carries sharps carbines. And, out of the box experience the same problems you are having - a few shots and they plug up.

The solution was to drill out the cone and breech block slightly. It virtually eliminated misfires, even with heavy use.

I am sure this could create a problem if a weapon was to be live fired, but the weapons we use are strictly for reenactments only.

If this is something you would want to try I will get the exact drill size for you - I'm at work and can't recall of the top of my head what was used.

Jay Johnson

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

Hallo Kameraden!

One problem is that Italains altered the Sharps "floating gas check plate" by making it a non-moving part of the breech block face, and substituting a "floating" sleeve in the chamber instead.
The gas check in the block should be able to move so when the power burns gas pressure hits the back of the block and forces the gas check up against the barrel and seal it. INSTEAD, the "Italian System" calls for the "floating sleeve" to move backwards to seal the breech.

Due to random or poor Italian "Quality Control," and various importers further opting for "less QC" as part of their pricing structure, etc., etc., some repos has "gas check" so poorly machined and fitted that they:

1. Are too long
2. Are too short
3. Do not float
4. Or float for a few rounds and then "coke up" and do not move, which soon "cokes up" the block's rising and fall.

I have talked about having the "floating sleeve" fitted for length and then permanently "frozen" in place, and the breech block machined for a Sharps type "gas check" on another post a while back.
I have also talked about sanding, emorying. or otherwise polishing the Italian gas sleeve so that it does move as the Italians intended (apologies to Mr. Sharps here..)

In general though, "live firing" is cleaner than "blank firing." The gas pressure generated by the burning powder blows backwards as well as out (actually in all directions bu the chamber walls and breeck gets in the way and it quickly seeks the path of least resistance... ;-)
The force of that "blast" serves to drive out unburned powder, burning power, and "charcoal residue" or "coke" out the muzzle.
With blanks, there is nothing to generate force behind (missing bullet), so there is less pressure to blow thorugh the breech and barrel - and so the arm shoots "dirtier" and "fouls" faster.

In the case of the blank firing Sharps, and the Italian changes to its "gas check" system- the number of blank rounds that can be fired even when it works as the Italians intended, is severely limited. However, by "fine tuning" th Italian gas sleeve so that it at least works- helps extend the number of rounds fired before the breech block cokes up and freezes.

(With a side note to Mr. Sharps.. the original is not the best design either...if one is looking for high-volume, sustained firing capability. ;-) )

Yes, drilling out the vent in the breech block face helps somewhat. Due to machining, fitting, and finishing on some Italian Sharps' breech blocks are "crisper" and do a better "guillotine" slice to cleanly cut off the back of the paper cartridge as the block rises. (Also, how, and of what material one makes Sharps Cartridges can also add or detract from the problem.)

At any rate, "stiffer" working breech blocks and breech blocks stiffened with coke," can crush the rear of the cartridge closed, or more closed- exposing less of the powder charge to the flash coming through the cone, flash channel, and vent and into the rear of the cartridge for ignition.

Enlarging the vent will allow more flash to the rear of the cartridge, improves the chances of a dependable ignition and firing. However, as the fouling due to the "gas sleeve" cokes the block up, it is more likely to crush and partially or fully close- rather than shear and leave open- the end of the cartridge. (And of course, an overly tight or binding action may not help as well.)

IMHO, sometimes a "cascade" of interrelated problems...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Sharps Shooter and Sharpshooter Mess

[ejn]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

Thank you for the reply. More stuff to try. We will try some of these fixes over the next few weeks. I'll report the results.

Ed

Hallo Kameraden!

One problem is that Italains altered the Sharps "floating gas check plate" by making it a non-moving part of the breech block face, and substituting a "floating" sleeve in the chamber instead. ...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Sharps Shooter and Sharpshooter Mess

[tommy303]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

Back in the 1960s I used to shoot an original 1863 Sharps Carbine quite a bit. The breech block on it was touchy about keeping the flash channel scrupulously clean between shooting events. If I recall correctly, and it has been almost 30 years since I traded it for a metallic cartridge Sharps, cleaning the breech block was a chore due to the torturous flash channel--remove the nipple and clean channel down to where it took a turn--remove the clean out screw to clean the next part of the channel, and then use a pipe cleaner to clean out the final leg of the channel through the vent cone. The gas check and pocket also had to be thoroughly cleaned. I normally used pipe cleaners and hot, soapy water for the primary cleaning, then compressed air to air dry the flash channel. A little Hoppe's #9 on another pipe cleaner served to combat corrosion.

One thing I noticed, was that the percussion caps available back in those days tended to be a good deal more powerful than caps commonly available today. The old French Alcan musket caps and United States Musket Caps I used to buy back then sounded like a 22 short when you snapped one off. I suspect the old fulminate/potassium chlorate caps of the 1860s were at least as powerful as those old Alcan musket caps, and ignition of the powder charge was probably better.

thomas fuller

[shiloh1863]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

I am a member of the UK's only Sharpshooter unit and we suffer from the same misfire problem, regardless whether the sharps is an Armi Sport or a Pedersoli!

Over a number of years we have found that to reduce the amount of misfires, the breech block has to be kept scrupulously clean. A quick tap on the side of the butt when loaded tends to place more powder on the face of the block and we use a 80gsm paper to make cartridges as this thickness of paper tends not to crimp so much when guillotined exposing more of the powder to the spark from the cap.

One thing that has been noticed is that certain guns are more prone to misfires that others. Two of our members have Pederosli Sharps one serial number apart. One fires every time and the other requires some persuasion!

The best advise I can sugest is try some of the things mentioned in the other postings, see what works for you and stick with it.

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Berdan Sharps Misfire

I don't have an aweful lot of new advice to contribute here, but will echo the point about cleaning the breechblock religiously. I found my Sharps takes about 5 minutes to clean the gun, and about 45 to clean the breech. Remove the cleanout screw every time and really work at getting the spark channel clean. If you can blow through the nipple hole, and feel air where the through the hole which is in the chamber, you should get good ignition. Second, make your rounds a little on the big side. It just seems to fire better that way. I fire combustible cartridges with 70 grains. Mine are glued on one end and twisted shut on the other. I chamber them like a bullet, with the twisted end first. That way when the breech cuts the cartridge, I'm assured of the maximum amount of powder exposed to the spark. Finally, a practical observation or two. If it misfires, try "duck hunting" and point the rifle as near vertical as possible. For some reason, that helps, probably seating powder in the chamber better. Also, because of the complicated spark channel, weak caps won't produce enough spark to get the job done. I have better ignition with CCI caps. Their reputation makes them problematic, but if you're firing in skirmish order or as a sharpshooter, you shouldn't have the attendant problem.