The 3rd Lieutenant

[UnionMan]

The presence of a 3rd lieutenant as a file closer is mentioned in both Hardee's and Casey's, yet this seems to be a rank that was seldom used during the war. What of the 3rd lieutenant? Was this rank abandoned due to manpower shortages? Were there actually 3rd lieutenants that served in large numbers during the war but we fail to mention them? Are there any official records or citations speaking to the role of this estranged rank?

Thanks,

-Tad

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

From what I can gather, the 3rd Lt. was not a rank, per se, but more of a position. That is, there were to be three Lieutenants per company, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Lieutenants. I believe the 3rd Lieutenant was the junior most Lieutenant and was of the pay grade of 2nd Lieutenant. Just like the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th sergeants. There was no difference in pay between these, but it was a different position with different responsibilities in drill.

I don't think you will see them actually mentioned as 3rd Lieutenant John Doe, but rather just Lieutenant or by their grade of 2nd Lieutenant. I am going to search my regiments rolls to see if there were three Lieutenants to a company at any given time.

I will get back on this after I have been able to search my regiment's rolls

[john duffer]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

I did a quick check through 24th Wisconsin & 83rd Illinois muster rolls and found no 3rd Lieutenants. By the end of Atlanta campaign 2nd LTs are pretty scarce in the 24th. The 83rd was mainly on garrison duty in Tennessee and maintained two lieutenants per company throughout the war with several 1st sergeants being promoted to that rank (one was promoted Oct 22, 1862 and resigned Feb 18, 1863). From Kautz's "The 1865 CUSTOMS of SERVICE for Officers of the Army" pages 17-18:

11. There are three grades of Lieutenants, viz: First, Second, and Brevet Second. There is no material difference in the duties they are required to perform; they differ only in rank.
12. Brevet Second Lieutenants are supernumerary officers commissioned from the graduates of the Military Academy, or from the non-commissioned officers of the Army found worthy of promotion, where there are no vacancies. (Acts April 29, 1812, sec. 4, and August 4, 1854, sec. 5, Reg. 22) First and Second Lieutenants belong to the legal organization of companies, whilst Brevet Second Lieutenants are not necessarily attached to the company; in practice they are usually attached to such companies from which one or more of the Lieutenants are absent on permanent staff duty. Only one supernumerary officer to a company can be allowed under the law.

Forget 3rd Lieutenants - what happened to the poor Ensigns ? :)

[minstrel_boy]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

Actually, the 3rd Leiutennant was referred to as an Ensign in the Confederate Army. My ggg grandfather was a "3rd LT." in the 62nd Ala but on his enlistment papers, he is called an Ensign.

Eric Ball
Co. A 62nd Alabama Inf.
(1st Ala Reserves)

[markj]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

Hi,

The rank of "Ensign" mentioned above was created for colorbearers by act of the Confederate States Congress in January 1864. I'm at work so I'm forced to rely on memory but this rank didn't last too long as it was officially phased out in January or February 1865. "Ensigns" were technically commissioned officers but had no formal command authority; how many individuals actually assumed the title is anyone's guess. I'm not even sure rank insignia for "ensign" was ever created (Federal colorbearers are known to have worn special, commercially-obtained rank insignia or, in the case of the 84th Indiana, were even allowed to wear company-grade officer uniforms).

The full text of the act creating "ensign" can be found in the OR.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[john duffer]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

In his 1830 ABSTRACT and 1861 INFANTRY TACTICS Winfield Scott has captain, three lieutenants and an ensign, the latter below 3rd LT and above 1st sergeant. They are posted in the line of file closers in the center of the first section. H. L. Scott's 1861 MILITARY DICTIONARY says it's the lowest rank of commissioned infantry officer.

[markj]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

Indeed. However, mention of "ensigns" (at least in all the Northern newspaper items I've seen discussing the raising of volunteer companies) effectively disappear after 1861. I hasten to add that the rank was definitely used in antebellum militia companies and I've also seen it occasionally used in companies raised for the Indiana Legion (state militia).

Here's another idea: Try doing a search on Vicki Betts' newspaper site

http://www.uttyl.edu/vbetts/newspaper_titles.htm

Doing this might provide further evidence for use of "ensign" and "3d Lieutenant." I did do a check using the keyword "ensign" and pulled up several hits...but all of them appear to date from 1861 or earlier, thus reinforcing my aforementioned point.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[JStiles]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

A lot of times the 3rd Lt was referred to as the "Jr 2nd Lt"of whatever company, etc. I have read quite a few period accounts, diaries, etc where this rank is mentioned. The first that pops into my head is "One of Jackson's Foot Cavalry" by John H Worsham. I agree with my good chum Brian Koenig that the 3rd Lt would hold a certain position in line with it's own responsibilities, I also believe that since the 3rd Lt is junior to the 2nd Lt, even though they're technically the same rank, the 2nd Lt would outrank the 3rd Lt..........Jerry Stiles

[JStiles]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

This thread interested me so I also checked Gilham's Manual, and sure enough the 3rd Lt is mentioned there as well. See page 34, which illustrates the position of the officers, Sergeants, etc in line of battle if you're interested.......Jerry Stiles

[OleReb]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

Muster rolls and other official records document my ancestor: Mark Butler Travis with the 4th Alabama Infantry, Co. E, aka the "Conecuh Guards". Originally joining the AVC (Alabama Volunteer Corps) in April of 1861, he (and the rest of the unit) was mustered into Confederate service on May 7, 1861 in Lynchburg, VA as "3rd Lieutenant, Bvt. 2nd Lieutenant" for one year. He seems to have spent a great deal of his enlistment, returning to Alabama "...on furlough..." or "...on recruiting service...". His name/signature also appears on a number of bounty payments and requisitions for initial issues of uniforms. I've been unable to verify what his other duties might have been.

At 33 years of age, he was an "old man" in the unit. Even his Captain (Pitney Bowles) was younger. He is listed as "dropped" from the rolls in April of 1862, still listed as "3rd Lieutenant". His age apparently exempted him from conscription or involuntary extension. There is no record of him receiving any promotions. He passed away, at home in Sparta, Alabama, in 1863 but it is unclear what caused his demise. I have one record of "influenza" and another of "debility"(??). Apparently, the rigors of the campaign and a bout with measles (May 25th - 30 June, 1861) did him in, as there is no record of injury or wounds during his service.

It is interesting to note, that he is documented as serving with a South Carolina Regiment in the Mexican war where he received a head wound, thought to be fatal, at Chapaltepec. He obviously recovered and a local newspaper account documents that he returned home "...a decorated hero..." but fails to mention what decoration he received. His younger brother does mention in a letter that he was promoted to "...Colonel of the Regiment..." but I have been unable to confirm that. Apparently he parlayed his military service in Mexico into a political career as he was elected to "County Clerk" a number of times and was serving in that capacity when he enlisted in the AVC in 1861.

One additional fact, he was the younger brother of Colonel William Barret Travis of Alamo fame, being approximately 8 years old when his elder brother died at the Alamo.

[belmontguy]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

3rd Lt. insignia? My cousin (3 times removed) 2nd Lt. David Phillips was also a 3rd Lt. I believe this photograph may be when he was a 3rd. Lt. Would the shoulder boards be of that rank? A 2nd Lt. would of course have one bar. More on David Phillips and the 7th Tennessee.http://battleofnashville.com/7th-tennessee-csa/

[Rob Weber]

Re: The 3rd Lieutenant

One of my ancestors (Patrick Henry Wood) was a veteran of Hagood's First SCV. The roster of his Company (E) was made prior to and then after some of the reorganization that went on early in the war. Interestingly prior to the reorganization the rosters contain 3rd Lt.'s and after the reorganization that rank disappears and the brevet 2nd Lt. rank appears. Please check out these links.

http://www.researchonline.net/sccw/rosters/1sthage1.htm

http://www.researchonline.net/sccw/rosters/1sthage2.htm

Cheers,
Rob Weber
119th NYV