Austrian Lorenz Repop

[rogue]

Re: Tall Yank w/ Lorenz

Go back a post or two on this thread and see my mention of an image auctioned off earlier on eBay. I found a scan I had made, the Lorenz being a personal favorite of mine.
He does appear tall, but is probably average height, 'tis the gun that makes the man, or...size counts!
Steve Sullivan
46th Illinois
Co. Mil. Hist.

[markj]

Re: Nice Federal image with Lorenz and traps

It should be easy to figure out the approximate heights of the men in the images: combine the lengths of the Lorenz and bayonet, then add or subtract a little extra based on whether rifle is taller or shorter than they are as shown.

For example, using the image I submitted, the length of a standard Lorenz was 52.75" + bayonet blade length of about 19" (depending on how it's measured) = 71.25". Subtract about 5" from this (accounting for the man's cap and any extra height he got from his shoes) and this gives us an approximate height of about 66.25. The scan is at an angle so I'm likely a bit off but probably not by much--the soldier was almost certainly around 67", give or take a little.

The Birney Zouave was clearly even shorter since the muzzle of the rifle (52.75") reaches up to shoulder-length. I don't have access to a Lorenz but I believe the distance from the muzzle to the top band is approximately 8". So, even allowing a little extra due to the young man's slightly stooped posture, he was likely no more than 5' 3" or 5' 4". He simply looks taller due to his cap. Somebody who has access to forensic photograph knowledge/technology could undoubtedly get an even better measurement using known dimensions of items shown in the images (e.g., waist belt plates, etc.).


Thoughts?

Mark Jaeger

[Ringgold]

Re: Nice Federal image with Lorenz and traps

To Heck with his height, look at the size of his HANDS! Gadzooks! Private Popeye reporting for duty, Sir! :tounge_sm

I know how digital cameras tend to have a fisheye effect when copying images, but this gent must have been a blacksmith with mitts like those. A hard worker at the least.

[markj]

Re: Nice Federal image with Lorenz and traps

You want to see some oven mitts? Shucks, take a look at Abe Lincoln's hands sometime. Massive--they reflect an early life of backbreaking labor.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/2781612/3091067TWZGPoVnhJ

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[trippcor]

Austrian Lorenz Repop

Someone is now repopping the Lorenz in mass. Unfortunately they picked a bore size that they already have tooling for, so the bore is too big. Maybe if enough of us complain they will at least get it down to 58 Cal if not the 54 Cal. The pics don't look to bad either.

http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/1854LORENZ.htm

[GrumpyDave]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

62 cal stinks. If it was made in 54 or 58 you could at the least find an original bayonet for the thing. As it is you'd have to wait for them to start manufacturing the bayonet too. Not a bad thing for the manufacturer/distributer. The price isn't bad for now but, wait until demand kicks in.

[Minieball577]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

You could always have someone likie Bobby Hoyt or Dan Whitacre put a rifled liner in the bore, at whatever calibre you wanted.

[Will Eichler]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

I think the best thing we can do is to let Blair, the owner of Loyalist, know that we want the weapon in .54. I've had several conversations with him via email (he's been very kind and forthcoming) and have already lodged that comment myself. Shoot them an email. Let them know what you think.

If more did so, we might have a go at it. Personally, I'd love an Austrian, but I too am holding out for a .54 barrel.

Best,

Will Eichler

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

An except from John Tobey's recent article on the Lorenz, published in The Columbia Examiner newsletter, June 2006 issue:

**********************

Known to Civil War soldiers as simply, “Austrian Rifles” and to modern collectors as “the Lorenz”, the Austrian Model 1854 rifle-musket saw widespread use in the Army of the Potomac prior to 1864. In fact, it was the second-most popular imported long arm in the hands of all Federal troops, with 226,924 imported by the US Government during the Civil War.

Although there were small numbers of other Austrian weapons used by Federal forces, such as the 1854 Short Rifle, this article covers only the Model 1854 and its derivative, the Model 1861, because these two types were usually not differentiated by the US government.

Importation
What was the ratio of different types issued? Of one group of 16,511 Lorenzes identifiable by type, 15,528 were .54 caliber Model 1854s; 12,384 had the block sight and 3,144 the leaf sight. In the same group, 983 were also Model 1854s, but bored out to .58 caliber.

Accessories included combination tools (comprised of a cone wrench, screw driver, and spring drift), ball screws, wipers, and cleaning jags of the Austrian pattern; interestingly, there appears to be no documentation of spare cones or spring vices of a distinct Austrian pattern being issued to Federal troops—when issued, these items were probably of the standard US pattern.

Another model was imported and described as “Austrian rifle muskets, bored out to .58 caliber:”

“In imitation of the Enfield rifle; barrel and lock blued, and tompion and snap cap attached…somewhat superior, in every respect, to [the other two types of Lorenz rifles previously described].”

A total of 7,376 of these guns had been received, and these were certainly the “Model 1861” weapons described later in this article.....

*

The US government preferred weapons that conformed to its own newfound standard of .58 caliber, so many Austrian rifles were consequently bored out by American and European gunsmiths, presumably in an attempt to make them more marketable to the US Army. Unfortunately, there was little consistency in the machining processes used to do this, and when the delivered weapons were actually inspected, bores were found to measure .56, .57, .59, and even .60 in addition to the .54 stock diameter and the desired .58. Theoretically, all the weapons with bores other than .54 and .58 were put into storage, but it’s hard to accept this as being put into practice during the weapon shortages that lasted from late 1861 to late 1862. Indeed, this variation in bore size may account for the inconsistent performance recorded by Lorenz rifles in the field. Some units reported their weapons as being extremely accurate, and other units recorded theirs as being unable to hit anything at over 100 yards.

The M1854 came in two basic models. One was equipped with a block sight that was supposed to be issued to the center companies of a regiment and a leaf sight that was issued to sharpshooters and the flank companies.

A second version made its Austrian debut in 1861, and included a redesigned lockplate shaped much like that used on the English Enfield. Although this model was not normally differentiated by the US Army, it was sometimes called the “Austrian Enfield”. This so-called “M1861” was only manufactured with the leaf sight.

Some researchers have held the opinion that the M1861’s were only imported late in the war, after the Austrians had sold off the older models they had available in storage. A closer look at the documentation, both written and photographic, refutes this.

*************************

The bayonets for the Lorenz were a good deal longer than those for '53 Enfields and Springfield rifle-muskets, so indeed someone has to make the bayonet and the scabbard to hold it. In addition to the length, there were other important differences between Lorenz bayonets and the Enfield and Springfield bayonets, including cross-sectional arrangement and the mortise on the shank.

Okay, enough. Frankly put this is all Mr. Tobey's research. :)

[Jimmayo]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

The bayonets for the Lorenz were a good deal longer than those for '53 Enfields and Springfield rifle-muskets, so indeed someone has to make the bayonet and the scabbard to hold it.

Reproduction CS lead finial scabbard and original bayonet. Scabbard is available.

I would be surprised if original bayonets fit the repro austrian.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

The pics don't look to bad either.

I gotta disagree. It only looks like a Lorenz if I squint at the screen. Generally, anything I've seen from L.A. looks worse than the Italian stuff we're all used to.

[Garrett Silliman]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

To reiterate other peoples comments, Blair Higgins is an exceptionally nice man to deal with. He was very forthcoming with information etc. , and I know he would welcome people's comments/questions etc. You can email him atloyalistarms@hfx.eastlink.ca. I had the opportunity to examine detailed photos of their Lorenz and I offered my comments (for what it's worth).

The .62 caliber smoothbore is a problem - No question. The question would be whether or not an original replacement barrel (defarbing) would fit the stock and hardware. I know he was interested in reproducing the bayonet and said that if anyone had an original they would be willing to part with he would give them a discount on a completed weapon. I applaud Loyalists efforts, and hopefully we'll have a reporduction Lorenz very soon.

Garrett Silliman

[Western Blue Belly]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

...It only looks like a Lorenz if I squint at the screen. Generally, anything I've seen from L.A. looks worse than the Italian stuff we're all used to.

I agree. I have a picture of myself holding an original Lorenz from several years ago (my kit and I look terrible, but the rifle looks great). I did a comparison of my picture to the one on the L.A. site.The repo looks way too thick, adding weight which is typical of L.A. and the hammer looks quite a bit differant. Of course compairing pictures is not the best way of going about
this.

Ken Zimmer

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

I had the opportunity to examine detailed photos of their Lorenz and I offered my comments (for what it's worth).

So...
What feedback did you give? What shortcomings did you note on the LA Lorenz?

Do you know if they plan to correct the shortcomings you noted?

[Garrett Silliman]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

So...
What feedback did you give? What shortcomings did you note on the LA Lorenz?

Do you know if they plan to correct the shortcomings you noted?

John,

Let me say that I was not a consultant on the LA Lorenz project, but merely an interested party with whom they shared some information with. I was one of many people that commented on the Lorenz.

That being said, there were a few things that jumped out such as problems with the stock. The grip and butt appeared to be at an odd angle compared to originals I have seen. The lock plate housing and the lock seemed to be poorly fitted, which they said was a result of the prototype and would be corrected in the production version. Also with the stock, I was concerned with the actual wood they were using as I understand LA uses Indian wood.

I am certainly not the formost expert on the Lorenz, nor is it easy to see dimensions etc from even good photos, so I would encourage any interested parties to contact Blair and let him know your thoughts/concerns etc.

Garrett Silliman